Perspectives on message boards like this one

I wonder about how everyone would feel about certain things if this board covered a different subject?

From the mid 80's to the mid 90's I honestly didn't think much about computers. My main interest included Porsches (early ones like the 356 models, pre-1974 911 models, 912 models and 914 models), Track & Field (I was a sprinter/hurdler) and Mathematics/Physics.

Stay with me here, this really isn't off the subject of this forum.

I wonder now, seeing as I don't currently own a Porsche, what it would have been like to be a member of a forum like this back then when I had several? Between 1986 and 1997 I owned a total of four different Porsches (a 911, a 912 Targa, and two 914s). It sounds to me like it would be pretty cool... talking with others who loved Porsches, sharing tips and the like.

But then I had to wonder after reading this thread (http://www.nextcomputers.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=6657#6657), what would I feel towards someone who came to the forum to ask for help on a Porsche they just stoled? I mean, what if someone was asking how to disassemble the ignition and rearrange the tumblers to work with a new key? And it was on a car they didn't own.

Now I'm sure that people will say something like "But Porsches are expensive and are in no way like software." The thing is, I bought my second 914 for $400... they aren't that expensive. And just like NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP media, Porsche isn't making 914s any more... but that doesn't justify stealing them. And I'm sure someone will also say "But it is a faceless crime because you aren't stealing from someone." But that is the worst excuse because when people rationalize doing the wrong thing in one area, they can build up a tolerance and start rationalizing in other areas too.

But what I'm asking about is how would I feel... the honest owner of a Porsche, about people who would come to a place where other honest Porsche owners share information asking about Porsches they have stolen.

See, to a degree, I look at that as a insult to what I care about. These people don't really care about Porsches, they are only in it for joy riding (basically, mistreating the cars). They have no intention of restoring the car to it's actual original functionality, and preserving the car's heritage is most likely the furthest thing on their minds.

It would be hard for me to be welcoming of people like that to a Porsche forum.

:roll:

... And you know, it is the same feeling I get when people like that come to a NeXT forum too.

Don't get me wrong, I love helping people... that is why I've invested hundreds of hours in the creation of my NeXT and Rhapsody web sites. But I can be reasonably assured that most of the people who actually read those sites are quite interested in the subject. Because it seems that most of the people who steal NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP/Rhapsody aren't going to actually spend any time reading about those systems, the first thing (and most of the time, only thing) they want to see is screen shots... and most of my pages are of actual helpful info in using these systems rather than screen shots (as I assume that everyone reading my stuff sees their own screens everyday anyways).

But forums are different. People who don't really own this software can (without learning the OS) come and ask those of us that actually know the software why things aren't working. And odds are that they are just doing this for a joyride and to post some screen shots for others like them. In the end, they will never see why this software was special, why we love this platform, or how this platform is still amazingly modern more than 10 years after the last version was released by NeXT.

Additionally, I have found that people who pay for their hardware and software are far more likely to actually use what they have invested their money in than people who are getting this stuff for free. Someone who paid, oh... say $100 for NEXTSTEP would be more likely to figure out how it worked and why it was worth $100 of their hard earned cash.


So I was wondering if I am the only person who sees the ethical and philosophical issues with helping people like this? Or even see a problem with letting them join up as members (though we can rest assured they won't stay long anyways)?

Well that was a very interesting post, however I beg to differ.  First of all, I don't like stealing, it's bad.  How people and where people are stealing old porches from is beyond me.  I disagree with what you said about joyriding software.  I agree with you about the fact that the software is special bu how do you expect people to be able to know what this software is like if they can't access it?  I have been trying to get a copy of Rhapsody DR2 forever simply for nostalgia but have never been able to because of the ridiculously high prices.  I cannot pay $300+ for an OS I won't be able to use daily. I don't pay that for my normal OS (free, comes with computer).  I love to show people NeXTstep to teach them about where OS X came from.  People are so amazed when they compare how advanced NeXTstep was compared to Windows 3 and other current OSes.  No, I don't own a legal copy of NeXTstep for Intel or Rhapsody for Intel.  I simply can't find one.  Not only is price a problem (I'm only 14, how do you expect me to pay more for an OS than I did for my iPod?), but so is availability.  The richest guy in the world may want to buy OPENSTEP but simply can't find it.  Playing with an OS is not the same as mistreating a car.  Keep in mind that it is only 1s and 0s.  Besides, how can I steal somethinf if no one is selling it?  Is it bad if people want to take a "joy ride" with an OS to learn more about history?  Honestly, I think this helps the OS as it teaches more people about it.  By not allowing people to copy it, tou condemn it to die as soon as all the copies of it are gone.  It's not like the developer will go out of business, because they already did.  Before you condemn as some pirate illegal downloader teenager, consider I own two NeXTstations, four Newtons, and so many Macs I can't count.  My NeXTstation wouldnt even work without out "illegal" copies of the OS.  So you chose, kill an OS or keep it alive.

He speaks with his heart but his heart is young Obi Wan. Ok I just watched the six Star Wars but you know what I mean (hopefully :roll: ). BTW kudos for another good post.

Quote from: "krfkeith"My NeXTstation wouldnt even work without out "illegal" copies of the OS.

If you have a NeXTstation, then your copy of NS is not illegal, as the hardware is what carried the license for the software, not the software itself. Openstep is another story entirely, as are the rhapsody versions as well.

Chef

RacerX brings up some good points, but it is really a matter of degree and in the end everyone has to decide for themselves how they feel about this.  I am of the feeling that in most circumstances knowledge should be freely given if you have it, for the betterment of all.  That does not mean that I would not report someone if I thought they were misusing the information in some way that I had provided.  

People do bad things, not tools or knowledge, and we all must not forget that.

Chef

Quote from: "krfkeith"Well that was a very interesting post, however I beg to differ.  First of all, I don't like stealing, it's bad.

But you don't actually believe that based on the rest of your post. It seems that right and wrong are more a matter of convenience for you than anything.

Actually, you are in a more dangerous position as a 14 year old doing this than someone who is, say 40 years old.

Why?

You are still developing who you are as a person, and you are learning to rationalize stealing. That will become part of who you are and what you'll become as an adult.

When I was 14 and couldn't afford something guess what I did?

I DID WITHOUT.

You are stealing... be it from a person, or a nameless, faceless corporation, stealing is ethically and legally wrong. And you are rationalizing doing the wrong thing because you want what you can't have.

As you didn't seem to follow the train of thought I posted above, maybe you aren't mentally mature enough to understand, but quite frankly I have always felt that the younger a person is when they comment a crime the harsher the punishment should be. When people let young people off easy, they are infact setting them up to believe that the consequences of their actions in the future will be just as lenient. Maybe you are the perfect example of this.

QuoteKeep in mind that it is only 1s and 0s.  Besides, how can I steal somethinf if no one is selling it?

Interesting... but by that logic, a book is simply just a plant byproduct with letters printed on it and a car is just iron, carbon and a handful of other elements of nature that have always just been there.

But what you should keep in mind is that those 1's and 0's where arranged by the efforts of people just like the elements of a car or a book. And the unique abilities of how those 1's and 0's are arranged adds value in the same way that the words on the pages of a book or the design of the car effect their value.

I see no justification for you stealing.

If I want something I either earn it or do without. I don't steal.

And as I stated in my original post, Porsche doesn't make 356s, 912s or 914s anymore... so does that mean that if I see one on the street I should just take it because they don't sell them anymore?

QuoteI disagree with what you said about joyriding software.  I agree with you about the fact that the software is special bu how do you expect people to be able to know what this software is like if they can't access it?  I have been trying to get a copy of Rhapsody DR2 forever simply for nostalgia but have never been able to because of the ridiculously high prices.  I cannot pay $300+ for an OS I won't be able to use daily. I don't pay that for my normal OS (free, comes with computer).

And you just proved my point about why paying for something actually increases people's willingness to learn. I paid for my copies of NEXTSTEP, OPENSTEP and Rhapsody (I've spent more than $1000 on software since 1997), and that proved to be a wonderful incentive to actually learn how to use these systems as daily platforms.

But only NEXTSTEP was ever free with a computer, OPENSTEP and Rhapsody were nearly always an additional purchase. NEXTSTEP and OPENSTEP were both $800 and Rhapsody was $500... they are all much cheeper now then they originally were, but not enough to keep you from taking them if you want them.

You are most likely still too young to understand this.

When I was your age I didn't care much about school. Why? Because it was always there and I didn't have to pay for it. When I went to college I wasn't given any help at all, so I had to work for the money to take classes. My grades and attendance shot up dramatically when school was something that cost me money.

QuoteBefore you condemn as some pirate illegal downloader teenager, consider I own two NeXTstations, four Newtons, and so many Macs I can't count.

So before I condemn a thief for stealing I should also take into account that they paid their electric bill and rent?

Here is something you will learn as you get older... you get no credit in life for doing the right thing. And you absolutely won't be able to apply following the rules at other times to when you are braking them.

It doesn't matter what you have paid for... what matters is that you still feel okay with taking what you haven't.

QuoteSo you chose, kill an OS or keep it alive.

You aren't keeping any of these operating systems alive, and neither are any of the other people who steal them just to take a look. If you stopped (or never started) using NEXTSTEP or OPENSTEP, it wouldn't make any difference as you already admitted that you don't really use them to begin with.

What we should really be worried about is if I had been the same type of NeXT user that you are. What if I had only installed, looked at and decided that these couldn't be used for anything but nostalgia (just like you).

You don't have the experience using any of these operating systems to write about them from a real user's point of view, which is exactly what allowed me to make the sites I maintain.

But as it is, you aren't keeping this OS alive with statements like "I cannot pay $300+ for an OS I won't be able to use daily"

So wait, downloading NeXTSTEP is like stealing a Porsche?

   THAT'S A PRETTY GOOD ONE DUDE

What I don't understand is if you buy it on eBay or "steal" it, Apple doesn't get moeny either way.  You really need to get over your self and you self-righteousness. Let me guess, you've never gotten a burned copy of a CD from a friend?

I got my copies of nextstep 2.0, 3.2 & 3.3 on ebay.  As well with my copy of OS 4.2.

Sure it takes *FOREVER* as from time to time NS/OS is envouge, and everyone *must* have 15 copies for whatever reason...

I know I'm 'evil' in that I'll offer to 'help' but at the same point I'm not going to say ftp://this.that.com/illegal/nextstep3.3.iso will get you going..   Afterall as we all know the ISO's don't boot and the average distro kid couldn't be bothered once they discover their beloved CD's are useless without... floppies.

OTOH it's nice to see new people..........

I'll be honest though, in 1994, if I had a contact to 'score' a copy of NS/Dev I would have.  I simply could *not* afford the $6000 USD they wanted at the time.

However I do actually have a copy of OS X server 1.0 that I bought for $599 USD....  I guess it's not like that makes it any 'better'.

but I do currently have multiple copies of NS in my immediate possesion, and copies of OS in another city.

I still don't know is it better to turn the clear pirates away, or is it just as well to play dumb?

If I had a copy of OS4.2 on hand I'd have CRC'd the thing and given the kid the checksum.  At the same time I wouldn't have given him an ISO.  Afterall I paid good money for mine.  I'm not about to throw it away.......

Quote from: "Computolio"THAT'S A PRETTY GOOD ONE DUDE

Thanks, I'm always happy to help make clear ethical distinctions (though hopefully you aren't one of the ethically challenged who requires the help).

Of course, for those who read what I said, I was describing the situation from the point of view of those of us who don't steal... and in that case, the actions of others (in this case, stealing software) is equivalent.

Now, as for how the justice system will deal with such actions is totally outside the bounds of our discussion. I'm wondering what those who paid for what they have think about those who steal to get the same things.

Quote from: "Computolio"So wait, downloading NeXTSTEP is like stealing a Porsche?

Well, considering that the last Porsche I bought was the same amount as what I originally paid for my NEXTSTEP software, to me someone who is stealing either item is just as guilty.



But as this seems to have gotten the attention of those with fuzzy ethics, I would pose a second question to you guys that is quite different from that of my original post...

What is the difference between downloading an OS and shoplifting one from the store?

And I'm not asking about the risk of being caught... I'm asking about your ethical point of view of either act. The media itself is only worth a few dollars at best, so the value of either item is essentially equal, but I get the feeling that you guys think that downloading is okay but shoplifting isn't.

How do you guys differentiate between the two?

:roll:

Or do you guys even differentiate between them? That is, is the risk of getting caught shoplifting was as low as downloading, would you be okay with that too?

Quote from: "krfkeith"What I don't understand is if you buy it on eBay or "steal" it, Apple doesn't get moeny either way. You really need to get over your self and you self-righteousness. Let me guess, you've never gotten a burned copy of a CD from a friend?

And if I buy a used Mac off ebay or "steal" it, Apple doesn't get money either way too... Hmmm, so is that how you rationalize stealing?

Yes, I've gotten burned media from people trying to be nice... no, I've never used any of it as it wasn't mine to begin with. But then again, I also would be a much bigger target, so keeping my nose clean (as it were) is far more important.

Plus I would be willing to bet that none of you guys have yet dealt with lawyers for software makers on this subject... I have. :(

And to be clear, this thread was aimed at those of us who don't steal software, so the ones who should get over themselves are the ones who think stealing is bad, but do it anyways.

:eek: Oh... wait, that would be you! :lol:

So did you steal your NeXTstations? If you did or didn't, Apple/NeXT didn't get that money anyways. On the other hand, copies of NEXTSTEP bought from Black Hole Inc does end up sending a portion of that money back to Apple (and if you buy from Black Hole on ebay, then yes, Apple does get some of that money too).


I'm sorry that you think I'm self-righteous... but you are the person who put yourself in a position of doing exactly what you claim to know is wrong. And it isn't my fault that your rationalization for stealing doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

The least you could be honest about your ethics and take back your earlier statement ("I don't like stealing, it's bad.").

Quote from: "RacerX"
As you didn't seem to follow the train of thought I posted above, maybe you aren't mentally mature enough to understand

Now that is uncalled for RacerX.  There is no need to sully your response with personal attacks on the kid.  You had a great opportunity here to explain your thoughts, and if not win him over at least get him thinking more about what you said.  You might have even been able to explore more about what his position is, and why it concerns you so much, but you shot down that possibility now.

A wasted opportunity .. how unfortunate.

Quote from: "neozeed"Afterall I paid good money for mine.  I'm not about to throw it away.......

I guess I was mainly wondering to what degree this effects those who honestly own their copies.

What I have noticed as a difference is that the people who own their stuff go out of their way to make use of it... and the people who download it come and go in quite short order. I sure don't see those people as helping the community, so the question is do they hurt it?

The community is small enough that the real NeXT users are all pretty well known, they have been around and are going to keep being around... but what about those who pop in with illegal copies of stuff just to tell their friends I have used a NeXT system (even though they really haven't). Should we just dismiss them (which is generally what I do... though I really hate getting pushy PMs or e-mails from people to make copies CD for them).

Quite frankly, I would love to see if krfkeith could learn to use a NeXT system as a daily computer. Having talked about saving the OS from death, it would be interesting to see if he knows enough to put his knowledge of the platform to the test.

But at 14, I highly doubt he is up to it. :(

nextchef as RacerX pointed out no one gets credit for doing the right thing. RacerX has overwhelming done the right thing by posting, all of his posts in this thread. I do give him credit, much credit. I am not interested in any way shape or form what the 14 year old child has to bring to the table regarding ethics. Sorry I have heard more than enough from him and found no wisdom that can be learned.

Quote from: "Nightengale"nextchef as RacerX pointed out no one gets credit for doing the right thing.

That still does not mean you should not try to do the right thing.  Knowing in your heart that you did the right thing is what is most important, and is the best "credit" you can get in my book.

Quote from: "Nightengale"RacerX has overwhelming done the right thing by posting, all of his posts in this thread.

That is my point exactly, he has a lot of knowledge and has shown himself to be a great resource for this forum and the community at large, which is why the statement was so unfortunate.  It was unnecessary for him getting his point across to "the child" as you put it, as it added nothing to further his assertions.

I felt a slight sting coming up when I read that part by RacerX as well. The child will get over it, I believe he has to have the capability to learn, besides he is interested in NeXT so that puts him above the pack. RacerX gave him quite a bit to think about.

Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new.

All men make mistakes, but only wise men learn from their mistakes.

We must expect to fail...but fail in a learning posture, determined no to repeat the mistakes, and to maximize the benefits from what is learned in the process.

It is not because the truth is too difficult to see that we make mistakes... we make mistakes because the easiest and most comfortable course for us is to seek insight where it accords with our emotions - especially selfish ones.

I love this one:

It is the highest form of self-respect to admit our errors and mistakes and make amends for them. To make a mistake is only an error in judgment, but to adhere to it when it is discovered shows infirmity of character.

Ok enough of these mistake quotes, I can feel the flames licking at my feet.

Quote from: "Nightengale"
It is the highest form of self-respect to admit our errors and mistakes and make amends for them. To make a mistake is only an error in judgment, but to adhere to it when it is discovered shows infirmity of character.

Thats a great one, and very appropriate for this discussion.

Another good one of his

"Dreams are renewable. No matter what our age or condition, there are still untapped possibilities within us and new beauty waiting to be born."

Quote from: "nextchef"Now that is uncalled for RacerX.  There is no need to sully your response with personal attacks on the kid.  You had a great opportunity here to explain your thoughts, and if not win him over at least get him thinking more about what you said.  You might have even been able to explore more about what his position is, and why it concerns you so much, but you shot down that possibility now.

A wasted opportunity .. how unfortunate.

He said he was 14... based on that, my comment was giving him the benefit of the doubt and was not a personal attack.

If I had said something like that to someone I knew was an adult... then it could have been taken personally.

This is a big subject, bigger than what a 14 year old should have gotten involved in and bigger than a 14 year old has the experience to deal with. Most of the arguments I would normally use in the area of ethics assume that I am speaking with adults... 14 year olds aren't adults so can't be expected to follow adult trains of thought.

The best thing for him to do is to re-examine what he said ("I don't like stealing, it's bad.") and see if his actions match his words.

Also, children assume credit or rewards for good behavior, and that they will off set any bad behavior (his point of view from his first post). Adults no that good behavior is expected and not rewarded, and bad behavior is not tolerated.

There is no personal attack when pointing out that a child is displaying a child's point of view and isn't following an adult train of thought.

May us look at this problem from another point of view?

What I would like to say is that a single Porsche can always be of someone else. And If I find and old one with the doors open and the key inside I would never enter.  :)
But I also know that the technology and knowledge Porsche has created and used to build the car cannot be of the Porsche itself forever.

All man thinking and man intellectual work as time pass will become accessible to all. It is just a matter of time.
Porsche maintain and spent a lot of money every year to maintain copyright on the knowledge it creates. But in let's say 20 or 30, or 100 years all the invention from the Porsche man will be available to everyone, for whatever reason.

We don't mind to sing and sell a song invented by a singer 100 year ago. And we don't mind to reproduce and sell romance and poetry of 1000 years ago. We pay for a book containing Seneca works but we don't pay the Seneca intellectual property anymore for his thoughts. OK please don't hate me for these silly reasoning.

How we should determine ourselves about software? Can we apply these silly reasoning to software? When this is possible and when not?
My thinking is that at the moment its illegal to copy Openstep and NEXTstep because Apple (say if I'm wrong) has still the copyright on this software written. Apple use part of this technology in OSX at the moment too. So let's pay for these wonderful man works.

For this reason, after a while, I was able to get the full NEXTstep suite (68k, Intel, HP, SUN) from ebay. Also if I run just for nostalgia once a time in a week (at the moment, I have different plan).
But I know this will not be for forever, there will come a time when the copyright will die. When some peculiar software maybe considered just as abandonware and possible to copied freely.

I hope that this will happen very far away in time, because probably that would mean that NEXT technology would be totally surpassed and useful only for historical interest; but is it not history that should help us grow and improve?

but looking @ http://www.levenez.com/unix/history.html#07 here it's fair to say that NeXTSTEP's BSD is based on a fork right before Tahoe.  

I know I have a copy of Tahoe for the VAX, I could package that up on simh for a "next like user experence....".  Yes I know it's hardly the same thing but at the same point it'll give *some* of the taste...

Was Mach 2.5 ever really 'opened up'?

I see in :  ftp://ftp.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/mach/public/src/mkernel

there is mach 3.0..

I've already packed up a Lites/mach/NetBSD 1.1 qemu image... it's dreadfully slow, but the networking operates...

Perhaps that would be a happy middle ground for our seeming pirate underground?

At least as far as I know that combination is legal.

I had written about it here:

http://virtuallyfun.blogspot.com/2007/05/tale-of-two-kernels.html

However an overheated server cooked my files.. I think I still have a copy of it, can anyone host 53 megabytes?

Quote from: "RacerX"This is a big subject, bigger than what a 14 year old should have gotten involved in and bigger than a 14 year old has the experience to deal with.  Most of the arguments I would normally use in the area of ethics assume that I am speaking with adults... 14 year olds aren't adults so can't be expected to follow adult trains of thought.

If that is what you think, then you should have not even responded to him, as he cant be expected to follow your adult train of though, as you put it.  I believe that a 14 year old can grasp and discuss these topics, as long as they are framed in the right context.

Quote from: "RacerX"Also, children assume credit or rewards for good behavior, and that they will off set any bad behavior (his point of view from his first post). Adults no that good behavior is expected and not rewarded, and bad behavior is not tolerated.

Applying that logic, then most adults today are not "adults", which is an unfortunate outcome of society today.  That is why it is so important to engage the "children" of today and explain to them that there is a right thing and a wrong thing to do, and that the world is not a squishy grey relativistic do what feels good place.

Quote from: "RacerX"There is no personal attack when pointing out that a child is displaying a child's point of view and isn't following an adult train of thought.

That may have been your intent, but your choice of words was not the best, especially when dealing with someone you have determined to be a child.

Quote from: "neozeed"I know I have a copy of Tahoe for the VAX, I could package that up on simh for a "next like user experence....".  Yes I know it's hardly the same thing but at the same point it'll give *some* of the taste...

Dont forget GNUstep, for those looking for "a taste".  No it is not the same thing as NS/OS, but it could be with some more effort.

Could this be the answer to the "joyriders", a modified version of GNUstep that looks even more like NS/OS.  They could then get the feel for it, take their screenshots or whatever, and if they liked it and wanted to know more could then get a "real" copy or real black hardware.

Sort of a "NS/OS Lite"

Chef

OK, look. I agree with RacerX.  In the sense that, it bothers me when people just wanna get some screenshots to say they have "used" NeXT.  Good enough for you?  I use NeXTSTEP as my main OS as much as possible however sometimes I just simply can't.  I own two pieces of black hardware that I use daily so I don't think I qualify as a "joy rider."  However, I do not think it's wrong when someone wants to try out an OS to learn more about it.  I tried Rhapsody out just to see what it was like and to learn more about it because I love OS X.  On the other hand, i is important to archive history. I was talking to someone who said he had a very early beta copy os NeXTSTEP like 1.2 or something.  He wouldn't share it because of "legal" concerns.  he might have the last copy on earth and it will die with him.  Do you see what I mean?  I don't pirate software (except for maybe a few versions of windows :-)).  I just feel like if someone seriously would like to use an older OS, they should be able even if they can't find a legal copy.  I propose this forum make some sort of petition to Apple to offer NeXTSTEP and Rhapsody for download like they did with System 7 (NOT MAC OS 7!!!, sorry pet peeve).  Atleast for us black hardware owners.

Thanks
Kevin

EDIT:
I think we can all agree that the common enemy are those people that just want screenshots and want to add it to their "collection."  And of course NeXTcube modders  :wink: .  The legality is a whole nother discussion

These points have probably been brought up already... I haven't read through the whole thread yet.

I own copies of NS and don't see a point in downloading it, but at the same time, I don't really have a problem with it. That is, as long as the person doing so is not turning around and trying to sell copies but it just using it on his/her hardware.


Apple does not make any money from it; They no longer sell nor do they even  support it anymore. I think it falls in the gray "abandonware" area.

Honestly, why even bother wasting the time and energy to argue over it? You won't stop people from downloading it. People that want legal copies can always easily buy a copy off ebay. I seriously doubt very many people actually download NS/OS.

As for the Porsche comparison... ha! :) I bet someone who has stolen a car probably HAS asked for help with it on a forum. They'd have to be a bit of an idiot to state that they stole it.

Quote from: "nextchef"

Quote from: "neozeed"I know I have a copy of Tahoe for the VAX, I could package that up on simh for a "next like user experence....".  Yes I know it's hardly the same thing but at the same point it'll give *some* of the taste...

Dont forget GNUstep, for those looking for "a taste".  No it is not the same thing as NS/OS, but it could be with some more effort.

Could this be the answer to the "joyriders", a modified version of GNUstep that looks even more like NS/OS.  They could then get the feel for it, take their screenshots or whatever, and if they liked it and wanted to know more could then get a "real" copy or real black hardware.

Sort of a "NS/OS Lite"

Chef

A well done Gnustep distro would be really nice. I really like windowmaker and gnustep.

I guess a gnustep/darwin thing could be slapped together... Although I wonder if the screenshot crowd would even care....?

I have to really wonder, what on earth would drive the 'kids' to nextstep in the first place?

You can't play doom 4 on it....

heh, who knows. I've always had a fascination with older machines and NeXT caught my attention when I was younger.... but I don't know why other people get into it.

nextchef, before making any further comments in this thread, please go back and re-read what I said. I think you should stop viewing this as if I had said any of this to you and remember that I was discussing this with someone else (who has stated their age and I have no reason to doubt them on their word).

Why should you re-read what has been posted?
Example 1:

Quote from: "nextchef"If that is what you think, then you should have not even responded to him, as he cant be expected to follow your adult train of though, as you put it.  I believe that a 14 year old can grasp and discuss these topics, as long as they are framed in the right context.

Why do you think that I shouldn't have responded where you believe you could have framed this in a better context? You never attempted this framing, but if you re-read the post (http://www.nextcomputers.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=6665#6665) in which you pull the quote from that started this, you see that after that quote I started reframing this into a context that would be applicable to someone who was 14 years old.

It looks like you had either stopped reading, or continued to read it as if I was talking with an adult (which is my guess here, as you are clearly taking offense for krfkeith while looking at it from your point of view).

Example 2:

Quote from: "nextchef"Applying that logic, then most adults today are not "adults", which is an unfortunate outcome of society today.  That is why it is so important to engage the "children" of today and explain to them that there is a right thing and a wrong thing to do, and that the world is not a squishy grey relativistic do what feels good place.

It is a sad commentary on society, and I could give you examples of people who are supposed to be adults who have problems sliding back into adolescent or even child-like behavior when confronted with outcomes which they don't like. While all people show the ability to fall back to these traits which should have been discarded long ago, some people show a greater tendency than others.

But this statement runs counter to your earlier statement where you said I should have not responded.

I don't know about you (you seem overly sensitive, which is not a personal attack), but I strongly believe that children should be treated with the respect (as in harshness of argument, not coddling). Adults become adults by being exposed to the realities of adulthood while growing up... though this may not have been what happen with you or may not be how you think it should be done.

Example 3:
And this one is the best of all of these...

Quote from: "nextchef"That may have been your intent, but your choice of words was not the best, especially when dealing with someone you have determined to be a child.

See, if the poster is what he says he is (and again, I have no reason to believe otherwise) then no other choice of words was possible.

That bares strong repeating (to help drive this point home for you, of course): no other choice of words was possible.

nextchef, I'm telling you, adult to adult, it is very important that you reexamine your choice of actions in this thread. I have (so far) given you the benefit of the doubt on this matter. But where I would make exceptions for children, I don't with other adults.

So I strongly suggest that you follow your own advice and not respond further to this. It is not the topic of the thread and has no place here. If you wish to start a Bash RacerX thread, I promise not to protest. But in this thread, please stick to the topic.


______________________________

Quote from: "krfkeith"I think we can all agree that the common enemy are those people that just want screenshots and want to add it to their "collection."

Actually, this is more true than most people will ever understand.

Platform tourist our how a lot of people get their information on rare or minority platforms. I have pointed it out before, this site (http://www.wowdailynews.com/pegasus/rhapsody/rhapsody_screens.html) is the perfect example of the information (actually, disinformation) that people get from platform tourist. And from that page most people would think that you really couldn't do anything useful with that operating system.

Quote from: "helf"As for the Porsche comparison... ha! :D I bet someone who has stolen a car probably HAS asked for help with it on a forum. They'd have to be a bit of an idiot to state that they stole it.

Well, this is the major difference here... downloaders don't feel any social stigma attached to what they do, so they don't attempt to hide it. Downloading illegal files is wrong and there can be harsh consequences (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gUiUM7D5ibA1Nf5u08i0_RTmq1nAD8S2M07O0), but it hasn't become socially unacceptable yet. :(

[quote="RacerXWell, this is the major difference here... downloaders don't feel any social stigma attached to what they do, so they don't attempt to hide it. Downloading illegal files is wrong and there can be harsh consequences (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gUiUM7D5ibA1Nf5u08i0_RTmq1nAD8S2M07O0), but it hasn't become socially unacceptable yet. :([/quote]

That is because "software" is intangible and much harder for people to think of as property theft.

You honestly CAN'T compare stealing a Porsche to downloading copies of obsolete software that is no longer supported. The owner of the software is not taking any financial losses from people downloading it if they are no longer supporting or selling it. People need to stop applying old world rules and ideas to newer things like software. It just does not work.

Now, for something like Windows XP or Windows Vista or even OSX... yeah, that is not right at all.

Quote from: "helf"You honestly CAN'T compare stealing a Porsche to downloading copies of obsolete software that is no longer supported. The owner of the software is not taking any financial losses from people downloading it if they are no longer supporting or selling it. People need to stop applying old world rules and ideas to newer things like software. It just does not work.

As I told kfrkeith when he asked my opinion on this, downloading a copy of NS without a license to use it is the same as walking into a store and taking a copy of any software without paying.  The consequences are different for your actions in each case, but they are both theft.  Theft is still theft no matter how you "frame" it, or what the perceived damage is to the owner.  Some people are ok with this, just as some people shoplift, pick pockets, or take an extra newspaper they did not pay for from the machine.

It is up to each person to decide if they can live with their actions, but it is still theft.

OK, I know where everyone is coming from. I really don't care. I have never downloaded NS nor plan on it. So the debating really has no meaning to me.

Anyways, I'm going to bed now ;)

Quote from: "nextchef"...Some people are ok with this, just as some people shoplift, pick pockets, or take an extra newspaper they did not pay for from the machine.

It is up to each person to decide if they can live with their actions, but it is still theft.

Funny you brought that up... My first wife was an elementary school teacher and in the teacher's lounge they had an honor box (box of snacks with prices and a smaller box to put your money into). When I found out that she had been taking snacks without paying, I made it a point to make a trip to the teacher's lounge every day to drop money into the honor box to make up for what she had basically stolen.

So when I express my disappointment in people with fuzzy ethics, that disappointment is quite heart felt as one of the people I loved most unfortunately fell into that category. :(

Quote from: "RacerX"

Quote from: "nextchef"...Some people are ok with this, just as some people shoplift, pick pockets, or take an extra newspaper they did not pay for from the machine.

It is up to each person to decide if they can live with their actions, but it is still theft.

Funny you brought that up... My first wife was an elementary school teacher and in the teacher's lounge they had an honor box (box of snacks with prices and a smaller box to put your money into). When I found out that she had been taking snacks without paying, I made it a point to make a trip to the teacher's lounge every day to drop money into the honor box to make up for what she had basically stolen.

So when I express my disappointment in people with fuzzy ethics, that disappointment is quite heart felt as one of the people I loved most unfortunately fell into that category. :(

I hear this band radiohead is allowing fans to pick their own price for their next album.  I suspect there will be a LOT of $0.00 "purchases"..

I remember from some psychological report that if you have a picture of a face over the money collection thing people have a higher likelyhood of paying......

Quote from: "neozeed"
I remember from some psychological report that if you have a picture of a face over the money collection thing people have a higher likelyhood of paying......

That is interesting. I should try that at work. We have a coffee pot with a container for holding change. Coffees are supposed to be 25c a cup. There is rarely much money in it at all and when there is, it is usually nickels and pennies. I'll try the face thing :)

It's a very inetersting view on this topic, RacerX, indeed. In fact the first one of this kind I've ever read.

But it's a never-ending-story, too. Remembering the very early days of personal (note: not home!) computing it was essential to share knowledge of hard- and software, regardless the legal (and related emotional) aspects. But this is about 30 or more years ago. The times of self-typed low quality manuals is far over and if you are listening to Steve Wozniak telling about his early days of phone hacking or programming "Pong" for just of the fun of it (well, Jobs wanted the money, as usual) it's somehow strange what became of these days.
I would like to reduce it to the facts as I see them regarding old Porsches or NeXT-machines. Although they are "unique" somehow they are just machines and there is absolutely no rational reason to treat them in a very special way: old Porsches just look nice and have a sporty style no other machine had but they use gasoline like mad, NeXT-machines are cool somehow and definetly some rather special computing hardware but although someone might still work with their black boxes I would never call them "productive" anymore, besides they are not very energy-friendly. But I love them and love is always one of the major reasons why humans tend to stick to "irrational" behaviour and thinking ;-)

About "sharing information" in accordance to "stolen machinery" is something that is disgusting to me. When I have the feeling that someone just tends to get his stolen machine just up and running again for the "show-off" thing (or whatever reason) I just look away. But if I get the feeling that someone is interested (I mean: really interested) but just lacks the necessary material I try to help. To get this one right:

I would never help anybody exchanging the Porsches's serail number just to hide it's origin! In those cases I'm always helping my "friends" (over here in Switzerland the Police and Firefighters are on the same side ;-). This is the same with stolen computing hardware, navigation systems or whatever.
But it's a bit different with software for old machines like the NeXT ones. To get it to the point: tons of historical computing hardware would just fetch dust if no knowledge would be shared (as in forums like this one, too). Ok, there is no strong reason to keep such old hardware alive (at least not in my opinion) but as longs as the evolution of that kind of communication tends to get forgotten I think that this only can be kept alive by doing some "slightly illegal" exchange. An example: I got myself those black machines but it took me much more time and efforts to get the system software for them! Well, I was lucky with the prices of my hardware but the OS was -> censored <- expensive! As I'm interested in the development of OS X I try to find out as much as I can about earlier systems (not necessarily NeXT solely) and there is simply no other way than to use more or less illegal software if You want to get it right.

You see where the dilemma of it all is?

You - knowing about the uniqueness of Porsches and NeXTs - will never ask dumb questions about "information sharing" in public or would exchange "stolen information" in forums. But You can not change mankind! You would never activly "hurt" a software company but people like You (and ma and many others around here) are nothing compared to those hordes of -> censored <- that never really care about anything that should

- be read
- be understood
- be handled right.

And there are some topics that should definetly be handled the right way. Appears to me that evolution of mankind has stopped in the meantime while evolution of computing made lots of efforts (and errors, too).

J[/list]

Quote from: "helf"heh, who knows. I've always had a fascination with older machines and NeXT caught my attention when I was younger.... but I don't know why other people get into it.

I'm in the same boat as you, Helf.  I didn't want to jump in on the arguments, but my "two cents" reasons for collecting/using the NeXT hardware and software include:

- The beauty of simplicity in a world of often "overbuilt" software
- Truly unique design which broke the mold (why I also love my G4 Cube)
- A sense of technology history
- A fascination with where things started
- Maybe a return to my "roots" as a now 41-year-old technician :)

I like to find the original NS media whenever possible, as it's so nice to be able to browse the original literature/documentation, etc. along with use of the system.  I'm into the details like that, I guess.  Heck, I was jazzed that the original NS3 complete box that I purchased had original FedEx labels on it, destined for the Stanford U. Library :) I was equally inspired in finding the internet photo of Sir Tim's NeXTCube at CERN....great stuff :D

I'm a fan of innovation and of history, and I guess I find a lot of that in my computer hobby.  Friends think I'm crazy, but I don't care.  Knowledge of the roots of computing passed on to the kids will hopefully result in a return to innovation and a true "outside the box" spirit.  I feel blessed to have been here to see this evolution happen, still remembering my pals' TRS80 computers  8)

Quote from: "matthewmac66"

I'm a fan of innovation and of history, and I guess I find a lot of that in my computer hobby.  Friends think I'm crazy, but I don't care.  Knowledge of the roots of computing passed on to the kids will hopefully result in a return to innovation and a true "outside the box" spirit.  I feel blessed to have been here to see this evolution happen, still remembering my pals' TRS80 computers  8)

That sums me up :) I LOVE history. I'm addicted to it. I have piles of books on old computers and other older things. I'm surrounded by antiques of all kinds. People think I'm insane for using my "ANCIENT!!!1" NeXT for most of my computing needs... hey, it does what I need and want and never ever messes up. :)

speaking of old media, I have NS 3.1 and 3.2 dev CDs and some other stuff. You interested? I'll probably never use them and they are just sitting in a box.

Quote from: "helf"

Quote from: "matthewmac66"

I'm a fan of innovation and of history, and I guess I find a lot of that in my computer hobby.  Friends think I'm crazy, but I don't care.  Knowledge of the roots of computing passed on to the kids will hopefully result in a return to innovation and a true "outside the box" spirit.  I feel blessed to have been here to see this evolution happen, still remembering my pals' TRS80 computers  8)

That sums me up :) I LOVE history. I'm addicted to it. I have piles of books on old computers and other older things. I'm surrounded by antiques of all kinds. People think I'm insane for using my "ANCIENT!!!1" NeXT for most of my computing needs... hey, it does what I need and want and never ever messes up. :)

speaking of old media, I have NS 3.1 and 3.2 dev CDs and some other stuff. You interested? I'll probably never use them and they are just sitting in a box.

Well said  8) as for the software, sure, I'd be interested.

Piracy is good?

http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=-7943417698180428255&amp;hl=en


8) there are always two sides, the good and the bad ...

remember when MS would say if people are going to pirate, they should be pirating OUR software... Since they know that eventually people will be in a place where they need to buy, and they'll stick with what they know...

Quote from: "neozeed"remember when MS would say if people are going to pirate, they should be pirating OUR software... Since they know that eventually people will be in a place where they need to buy, and they'll stick with what they know...

The chance that a person might find a "better" alternative is sometimes worse than piracy.  A pirate is still a prospective customer in some twisted way, but once they leave it is much harder to get them back.

Chef