New NeXT RISC Workstation photos

Special thanks go out to Tom LaFleur for sending in pictures of his NeXT RISC Workstation prototype.

(click to enlarge)
(http://www.nextcomputers.org/NeXTfiles/Images/Rare_NeXT_Hardware/NRW-NeXT_RISC_Workstation/NeXT_RISC_side_2.jpg)

(http://www.nextcomputers.org/NeXTfiles/Images/Rare_NeXT_Hardware/NRW-NeXT_RISC_Workstation/NeXT_RISC_side_disk.jpg)

(http://www.nextcomputers.org/NeXTfiles/Images/Rare_NeXT_Hardware/NRW-NeXT_RISC_Workstation/NeXT_RISC_rear.jpg)

(http://www.nextcomputers.org/NeXTfiles/Images/Rare_NeXT_Hardware/NRW-NeXT_RISC_Workstation/NeXT_RISC_ports.jpg)

(http://www.nextcomputers.org/NeXTfiles/Images/Rare_NeXT_Hardware/NRW-NeXT_RISC_Workstation/NeXT_RISC_open.jpg)

(http://www.nextcomputers.org/NeXTfiles/Images/Rare_NeXT_Hardware/NRW-NeXT_RISC_Workstation/NeXT_RISC_front_3.jpg)

(http://www.nextcomputers.org/NeXTfiles/Images/Rare_NeXT_Hardware/NRW-NeXT_RISC_Workstation/NeXT_RISC_front_2.jpg)

(http://www.nextcomputers.org/NeXTfiles/Images/Rare_NeXT_Hardware/NRW-NeXT_RISC_Workstation/NeXT_RISC_board_1.jpg)

(http://www.nextcomputers.org/NeXTfiles/Images/Rare_NeXT_Hardware/NRW-NeXT_RISC_Workstation/NeXT_RISC_board_2.jpg)

Edit 2/11/2008: Tom sent in these additional pictures shown below.

(http://www.nextcomputers.org/NeXTfiles/Images/Rare_NeXT_Hardware/NRW-NeXT_RISC_Workstation/NeXT_RISC_board_part_number.jpg)

(http://www.nextcomputers.org/NeXTfiles/Images/Rare_NeXT_Hardware/NRW-NeXT_RISC_Workstation/NeXT_RISC_Mother_and_Daughter_boards.jpg)

(http://www.nextcomputers.org/NeXTfiles/Images/Rare_NeXT_Hardware/NRW-NeXT_RISC_Workstation/NeXT_RISC_MB_Back_marking.jpg)

(http://www.nextcomputers.org/NeXTfiles/Images/Rare_NeXT_Hardware/NRW-NeXT_RISC_Workstation/NeXT_RISC_top_case_27.jpg)

(http://www.nextcomputers.org/NeXTfiles/Images/Rare_NeXT_Hardware/NRW-NeXT_RISC_Workstation/NeXT_RISC_daughter_board_part_number.jpg)

Awesome!  Thanks for sharing these!

Does anyone know what parts number the motherboard and case are?  Are there any pictures of the bottom of the case, or closeups of the area around the NeXT logo on the motherboard?

Does it work?

I see absolutely zero chips on that board. You tell me.

Quote from: "Computolio"I see absolutely zero chips on that board. You tell me.

Yeah, I was kinda disappointed when I noticed that on the older pictures a while ago. Either way, nothing is publicly available that can run on it (there was an internal version of NS 3.0 for it).

Eric

Whow, looks like a lot of custom chips were used in the NRW's design. What a shame there is no working machine around. Wasn't there some guy who had tech docs on the NRW?

Great pics, and thanks to the provider and poster for sharing them.

A slab with a little extra bit added on the bottom, and the ridges shifted down.  I especially like the cutout/overhang created in the front.  No more scratching up the logo by pushing the keyboard into it on ones desk.

Optical digital audio in and out connectors on the side...

Too bad it never had a chance to strut its stuff.

Chef

well, I may be able to contact someone who worked at NeXT  maybe we can dig up some more info.  If anyone were to clone a NeXT system, this would be it.  Now there were two proposed versions.  One used a Moto 88000. The other used PowerPC.  If they had an internal version of NS for it, then more likely than not, there was a working version.

*Pulls out detective hat and maginifying glass*

What I find interesting in these pictures is the inclusion of some new technology as well as some older legacy parts that even in the mid 90's was losing favor.
I'm talking about the optical audio in and out, and the bnc ethernet.
I guess floppies were still the thing then too. I'm a little surprised that in this revision they weren't thinking about an internal CD-ROM.  Also interesting is the lack of a DSP port, but as seen from the discussion on the multiple DSP cube board, the PPC chips were rapidly making a dedicated DSP chip obsolete.  Looking at the memory slots it looks like it may have been possible to max out at least with 256meg ram.. at time of sale, and then 512 when the 64mb chips came out. (would be interesting to know if the 128 mb 72pin chips would even fit space- wise).

and lastly.. I do like that the power supply had an extra power out port for plugging in the monitor... I always thought that was a great feature on some of the macs of the time.

I heard that at least one of these was running... would have been cool to see it.

Quote from: "rice0067"What I find interesting in these pictures is the inclusion of some new technology as well as some older legacy parts that even in the mid 90's was losing favor.
I'm talking about the optical audio in and out, and the bnc ethernet.
I guess floppies were still the thing then too. I'm a little surprised that in this revision they weren't thinking about an internal CD-ROM.  Also interesting is the lack of a DSP port, but as seen from the discussion on the multiple DSP cube board, the PPC chips were rapidly making a dedicated DSP chip obsolete.  Looking at the memory slots it looks like it may have been possible to max out at least with 256meg ram.. at time of sale, and then 512 when the 64mb chips came out. (would be interesting to know if the 128 mb 72pin chips would even fit space- wise).

and lastly.. I do like that the power supply had an extra power out port for plugging in the monitor... I always thought that was a great feature on some of the macs of the time.

I heard that at least one of these was running... would have been cool to see it.

Actually the strangest thing I think is the ISDN port.  Not many machines had that.  I've got a Sun Sparc Voyager that has ISDN built-in, and that's the only other machine I've ever heard of that had it built-in or standard.

While BNC was certainly on the way out, I don't think it would have been considered obsolete yet in the very early 90s.

Optical audio in/out is still pretty common.

I hadn't noticed the lack of DSP port.  The DSP port was always an interesting addition to me.  I always suspected that's where Be got the idea for the GeekPort on the BeBox.  Incidentally, I think the BeBoxes have a DSP in them as well.  I know the Hobbit prototypes did, and I'm pretty sure the PPC based production ones did too.  I'll have to crack one open when I get home and check.

Quote from: "pergamon"
Actually the strangest thing I think is the ISDN port.  Not many machines had that.  I've got a Sun Sparc Voyager that has ISDN built-in, and that's the only other machine I've ever heard of that had it built-in or standard.

If memory serves, didn't the SGI Indys (the pizzabox blue ones) come with an ISDN port, along with an AUI and 10baseT connectors.  It was the port next to the ethernet jack that had the red sticker to keep you from plugging stuff in accidentally.  Will have to look when I get home, but that is what I remember.

Chef

Quote from: "nextchef"

Quote from: "pergamon"
Actually the strangest thing I think is the ISDN port.  Not many machines had that.  I've got a Sun Sparc Voyager that has ISDN built-in, and that's the only other machine I've ever heard of that had it built-in or standard.

If memory serves, didn't the SGI Indys (the pizzabox blue ones) come with an ISDN port, along with an AUI and 10baseT connectors.  It was the port next to the ethernet jack that had the red sticker to keep you from plugging stuff in accidentally.  Will have to look when I get home, but that is what I remember.

Chef

Indeed, you are correct:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SGI_Indy

I guess I never paid much attention to the ports on the Indys.  Mine's in storage an hour away right now ;)

Quote from: "pergamon"Indeed, you are correct:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SGI_Indy

Every once in a while the stars and planets align, the old synapses in my brain decide to actually fire correctly, and out comes another piece of basically useless trivia.  :D

Chef

I once heard a story from a friend of mine that worked at NeXT that the SGI Indy owed a LOT of it's heritage to this never manufactured machine.

No idea if it was true or not, just second hand, but interesting.

Graeme.

Now that you mention it, it does have some similar connections.
The first thing that looks identical is the location of the floppy drive, the second being the rear connections though they are not the exact same.

Even the scsi and PSU placement look the same

That would have been an awesome machine to sit in front of.  Even the subtle stuff like the integrated soundbox, the additional power, the expansion slots...  Even the difference in the sound of the fan, blowing air through the entire power supply vs. the arrangement on the slab (http://www.nextcomputers.org/NeXTfiles/Docs/Patents/US_Patent_D331,227.pdf).

Does anybody know the specs on the expansion slots?

The original post has been edited to show additional pictures that Tom sent in.  Thanks Tom!

I wonder if our new forum member Marc has some insights and stories concerning this aborted piece of hardware.

Chef

Yes it works.

It even had a Custom NS 3.3 with SMP compiled support since it's a Dual Processor PowerPC system.

It used a CPU prior to the PowerPC 600 series.

It's called The Brick in NeXT now Apple Engineering.

So, there is still a working version eh?  How far did the Motorola 88k version get?

It's a beautiful piece of machinery.

Fiber optic ports included.

NS 3.3 with SMP custom build was never released because they cancelled hardware for Black and the support moving forward with Openstep broke down between Sun and Apple Executives.

Let's just say SUN had Openstep 4 ready to role on Sun hardware. They had everything ported.

The relationship broke down at the negotiating table on money.

Surprised? I wasn't.

HP Gecko were cool hardware. Too bad HP screwed themselves out of some kick ass hardware.

Unless Apple Engineering got rid of their Museum of NeXTSTEP to Openstep to Rhapsody to OS X release builds running on different machines you should be able to see the Brick running smoothly and it makes you just wish Apple would release such a sleak design with Dual 10Gb Ethernet, Fiber Optic Ports, eSata, etc., on their latest hardware and offer this to the Engineering Markets and much more.

Not everyone wants a Tower.

You'd think a Brick would be a big seller where people could have them slotted underneath desks, but not on the floor and another option to sell high quality hardware for the professional markets.

I hope they do it some day.

Now, to clone it!! Haha, just kidding.  Get your hand grenades and machine guns and your ninja outfits.  We're breaking in!! Operation: RISCy has commenced!

Quote from: "krfkeith"Operation: RISCy has commenced!

:lol:  That was a horrible pun.
Just horrible.

Quote from: "mdriftmeyer"
Let's just say SUN had Openstep 4 ready to role on Sun hardware. They had everything ported.

The relationship broke down at the negotiating table on money.

Surprised? I wasn't.

Anyone that knew the history of NeXT's contentious relationship with other partners would not be surprised.  Here's a story to consider - it's completely made up, of course.

"Rumor has it that": IBM had spent considerable effort porting the (then) current version of NeXTstep (I can't recall if it was 1.x or 2.x) onto some of their hardware, only to have the surprise of a lifetime when NeXT - unbeknownst to them - publicly released the next major version, making much of the effort useless.   I recall even seeing the printed IBM literature advertising what instantly became an obsolete version of the OS.

That's a part of why you never saw that port of NeXTstep on IBM hardware at a time way before the Sun and HP ports were ever considered.

End of story.

Quote from: "nfjanette"

Quote from: "mdriftmeyer"
Let's just say SUN had Openstep 4 ready to role on Sun hardware. They had everything ported.

The relationship broke down at the negotiating table on money.

Surprised? I wasn't.

Anyone that knew the history of NeXT's contentious relationship with other partners would not be surprised.  Here's a story to consider - it's completely made up, of course.

"Rumor has it that": IBM had spent considerable effort porting the (then) current version of NeXTstep (I can't recall if it was 1.x or 2.x) onto some of their hardware, only to have the surprise of a lifetime when NeXT - unbeknownst to them - publicly released the next major version, making much of the effort useless.   I recall even seeing the printed IBM literature advertising what instantly became an obsolete version of the OS.

That's a part of why you never saw that port of NeXTstep on IBM hardware at a time way before the Sun and HP ports were ever considered.

End of story.

It's no story.

IBM had a license to run NeXTSTEP.

IBM AIX team was competing against NeXT for being the choice of OS on IBM's hardware.

The AIX Team was quite confident until it was shown that NeXTSTEP ran circles around it and that just wouldn't do.

Solution: IBM AIX added an Emulator layer requirement and then installed NeXTSTEP on top of that and during the Executive Briefing all the execs saw was NeXTSTEP running with poorer performance benchmarks compared to AIX.

Sad, but one "non-fictional account" that left a permanent bad taste in Steve's mouth and we didn't even deal with future partnerships after that bit of politics inside IBM.

Quote from: "mdriftmeyer"
Solution: IBM AIX added an Emulator layer requirement and then installed NeXTSTEP on top of that and during the Executive Briefing all the execs saw was NeXTSTEP running with poorer performance benchmarks compared to AIX.

Sad, but one "non-fictional account" that left a permanent bad taste in Steve's mouth and we didn't even deal with future partnerships after that bit of politics inside IBM.

There is more than one way to spin any story, and the version I heard - from someone close to the action - painted NeXT as less the victim and more a player in the fiasco.  I seem to recall OS/2 was involved in the situation as well, but my memory is a bit fizzy on the issue.  This situation was unlike, for example, the ND board compression chip fiasco, in which NeXT was very much the blameless victim.

But, I wasn't there, so it's just a story to me, and I can believe the spin I received (from a huge supporter of NeXT) is incorrect.  I was, however, closely involved in some other business at important NeXT customer sites; those experiences lead me to believe it's more than possible that management arrogance at NeXT was more harmful than helpful in some cases.  It can be a fine line between confidence and arrogance.

Quote from: "nfjanette"

Quote from: "mdriftmeyer"
Solution: IBM AIX added an Emulator layer requirement and then installed NeXTSTEP on top of that and during the Executive Briefing all the execs saw was NeXTSTEP running with poorer performance benchmarks compared to AIX.

Sad, but one "non-fictional account" that left a permanent bad taste in Steve's mouth and we didn't even deal with future partnerships after that bit of politics inside IBM.

There is more than one way to spin any story, and the version I heard - from someone close to the action - painted NeXT as less the victim and more a player in the fiasco.  I seem to recall OS/2 was involved in the situation as well, but my memory is a bit fizzy on the issue.  This situation was unlike, for example, the ND board compression chip fiasco, in which NeXT was very much the blameless victim.

But, I wasn't there, so it's just a story to me, and I can believe the spin I received (from a huge supporter of NeXT) is incorrect.  I was, however, closely involved in some other business at important NeXT customer sites; those experiences lead me to believe it's more than possible that management arrogance at NeXT was more harmful than helpful in some cases.  It can be a fine line between confidence and arrogance.

Without a doubt the NeXTDimension board was not ready for primetime. It definitely was buggy and needed more research before it became a reality. That's all on NeXT.

Quote from: "mdriftmeyer"...
HP Gecko were cool hardware. Too bad HP screwed themselves out of some kick ass hardware.
...

Not to derail the thread, but here's some pics (http://flickr.com/photos/blakespot/sets/72157604303889717/) of my Gecko.

And a post I made (http://www.bytecellar.com/archives/000040.php) about it's unique display hardware, HP Color Recovery.




blakespot

Quote from: "krfkeith"So, there is still a working version eh?  How far did the Motorola 88k version get?

You know I think it must have worked...


if (! $?MACHINE) then
   if (-d /NextApps) then
       set MACHINE=`hostinfo | awk '/MC680x0/ { printf("m68k") } /MC880x0/ { pr
intf("m88k") }'`
   endif
endif

You can find stuff like that in xnu...

% egrep -rl m88k *
EXTERNAL_HEADERS/stdarg.h
bsd/conf/machine.awk
bsd/conf/tools/doconf/doconf.csh
bsd/ppc/signal.h
bsd/vm/vm_unix.c
iokit/conf/tools/doconf/doconf.csh
libkern/conf/tools/doconf/doconf.csh
libsa/conf/tools/doconf/doconf.csh
osfmk/conf/tools/doconf/doconf.csh
osfmk/libsa/ppc/stdarg_apple.h
pexpert/conf/tools/doconf/doconf.csh

Even the m68k stuff:

% egrep -rl m68k *
bsd/conf/machine.awk
bsd/conf/tools/doconf/doconf.csh
bsd/dev/i386/km.c
bsd/dev/ppc/km.c
bsd/hfs/hfs_macos_defs.h
bsd/kern/init_sysent.c
bsd/kern/kern_core.c
bsd/kern/mach_header.c
bsd/kern/mach_header.h
bsd/kern/subr_prf.c
bsd/netinet/bootp.h
bsd/netinet/ip_auth.c
iokit/conf/tools/doconf/doconf.csh
iokit/mach-o/mach_header.h
libkern/conf/tools/doconf/doconf.csh
libkern/mach-o/mach_header.h
libsa/conf/tools/doconf/doconf.csh
osfmk/conf/tools/doconf/doconf.csh
osfmk/mach-o/mach_header.c
osfmk/mach-o/mach_header.h
pexpert/conf/tools/doconf/doconf.csh

Yet HPPA is practically gone:

% egrep -rl hppa *
EXTERNAL_HEADERS/stdarg.h
bsd/ppc/signal.h
iokit/Drivers/network/AppleBPF/bpf_filter.c
osfmk/libsa/ppc/stdarg_apple.h
osfmk/profiling/ppc/profile-md.h


And finally the sparc stuff:

% egrep -rl sparc *
EXTERNAL_HEADERS/stdarg.h
bsd/crypto/blowfish/bf_locl.h
bsd/crypto/des/des_ecb.c
bsd/hfs/hfs_macos_defs.h
bsd/net/bpf_filter.c
bsd/netinet/ip_auth.c
bsd/netinet/ip_compat.h
bsd/netinet/ip_nat.c
bsd/netinet6/in6.h
bsd/sys/sysctl.h
iokit/Drivers/network/AppleBPF/bpf.c
iokit/Drivers/network/AppleBPF/bpf_filter.c
libkern/c++/OSUnserialize.cpp
libkern/c++/OSUnserializeXML.cpp
osfmk/libsa/ppc/stdarg_apple.h

But then for the heck of it, here is a quick search on the VAX:

% egrep -rl vax *
EXTERNAL_HEADERS/stdarg.h
bsd/i386/endian.h
bsd/include/stdio.h
bsd/kern/kern_subr.c
bsd/libkern/bcmp.c
bsd/netinet/ip_compat.h
bsd/netinet/ip_output.c
bsd/netiso/clnp_debug.c
bsd/netiso/esis.h
bsd/netiso/tp_tpdu.h
bsd/netns/ns.h
bsd/netns/ns_ip.c
bsd/netns/ns_output.c
bsd/ppc/endian.h
osfmk/ddb/db_run.c
osfmk/i386/endian.h
osfmk/kern/queue.c
osfmk/libsa/ppc/stdarg_apple.h
osfmk/mach/i386/exception.h
osfmk/mach/i386/syscall_sw.h
osfmk/mach/i386/vm_types.h
osfmk/mach/ppc/vm_types.h
osfmk/ppc/endian.h
osfmk/sys/varargs.h

Finally you may get a kick out of machine.h in the osfmk..


#define CPU_TYPE_ANY            ((cpu_type_t) -1)

#define CPU_TYPE_VAX            ((cpu_type_t) 1)
/* skip                         ((cpu_type_t) 2)        */
/* skip                         ((cpu_type_t) 3)        */
/* skip                         ((cpu_type_t) 4)        */
/* skip                         ((cpu_type_t) 5)        */
#define CPU_TYPE_MC680x0        ((cpu_type_t) 6)
#define CPU_TYPE_I386           ((cpu_type_t) 7)
/* skip CPU_TYPE_MIPS           ((cpu_type_t) 8)        */
/* skip                         ((cpu_type_t) 9)        */
#define CPU_TYPE_MC98000        ((cpu_type_t) 10)
#define CPU_TYPE_HPPA           ((cpu_type_t) 11)
/* skip CPU_TYPE_ARM            ((cpu_type_t) 12)       */
#define CPU_TYPE_MC88000        ((cpu_type_t) 13)
#define CPU_TYPE_SPARC          ((cpu_type_t) 14)
#define CPU_TYPE_I860           ((cpu_type_t) 15)
/* skip CPU_TYPE_ALPHA          ((cpu_type_t) 16)       */
/* skip                         ((cpu_type_t) 17)       */
#define CPU_TYPE_POWERPC                ((cpu_type_t) 18)

I wonder if they ever released all of the osfmk... it's amazing how many thing it seems to have run on.

And finally as someone pointed out the pre 60X PowerPC cpu's were supported they are mentioned in passing:

/*
*      MC98000 (PowerPC) subtypes
*/
#define CPU_SUBTYPE_MC98000_ALL ((cpu_subtype_t) 0)
#define CPU_SUBTYPE_MC98601     ((cpu_subtype_t) 1)


This is all from Xnu 123.5  (OS X 10.0)... Does anyone have anything older?

/* Copyright (c) 1991 NeXT Computer, Inc.  All rights reserved.
*
* File: architecture/m88k/fp_regs.h
* Author: Mike DeMoney, NeXT Computer, Inc.
*
* This include file defines Motorola 88K architecturally defined
* floating point control and status registers.
*
* HISTORY
* 23-Jan-91  Mike DeMoney (mike@next.com)
* Created.
*/

http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/DevToolsJun2005/gas-590/include/architecture/m88k/fp_regs.h

I believe the Sparcstation 10 has a pair of rj45 jacks labeled ISDN. I can take a picture of mine if you'd like.

The Brick ran NS 3.3 dual processor enabled custom version of the OS that was never released.

Please visit Apple Engineering for a demonstation of it running.

What are the dimensions on this thing?

https://www.facebook.com/groups/906058089486398?multi_permalinks=7826743684084436&hoisted_section_header_type=recently_seen

Wow is it a good group? Anyone here in it? Is it worth joining?

Quote from: zombie on July 01, 2024, 07:37:06 PMWow is it a good group? Anyone here in it? Is it worth joining?

Well, it is Facebook.