Hi,
I'm new to the NeXT world having just landed a NeXTstation Color (I'm a vintage Apple guy really). After getting hold of a 13W3 to VGA adapter (the CRT got trashed while it was being shipped), I'm up and running...to a point (the point at which it says 'trying to boot from network'). My machine is lacking a hard disc so hopefully someone will know:
1. Can I useany 50 pin SCSI drive or does it have to be something 'special'?
2. Are there any HD size limits I need to know about?
3. Can I use standard SCSI and power cables for the internal HD?
4. What OS can I install?
5. Where can I get an OS from (preferably for free)(ideally I'd like to run NeXTStep but I realise that it might not be an option)?
6. Can I use my existing external Apple CD-ROM to install from?
I've popped the hood to check the ROM version (v2.5 rev 66), six of the eight RAM slots are loaded (no idea with what), the floppy drive is all present and correct, and everything seems to be running fine.
So...where do I go from here? :?:
Quote from: "TheNeil"...to a point (the point at which it says 'trying to boot from network'). My machine is lacking a hard disc so hopefully someone will know:
1. Can I useany 50 pin SCSI drive or does it have to be something 'special'?
Many harddisks will do this job but it will get more difficult in case the size is over 2 GB: the drive will have to be divided into partitions. So if You are able to get a 2GB drive it will be sufficient for many purposes. But be aware: especially those older Apple 800 MB up to 2 GB drives (mostly Quantum Fireballs) do NOT work - at least I noticed that while trying to use those. These drives do not provide special termination options like Seagates and others.
Quote from: "TheNeil"2. Are there any HD size limits I need to know about?:?:
As already mentioned: no, there are no real limitations besides the fact that drives larger than 2GB have to be partitionized. I'm not sure about drives larger than 30 GB...
Quote from: "TheNeil"3. Can I use standard SCSI and power cables for the internal HD?
Being an Apple user You can use almost any cable from older Macs.
Quote from: "TheNeil"4. What OS can I install?
NeXTstep 3.3 (maybe even older versions) and of course OpenStep 4.2. There are some OpenBSD distributions out there for black hardware but I never tested those...
Quote from: "TheNeil"5. Where can I get an OS from (preferably for free)(ideally I'd like to run NeXTStep but I realise that it might not be an option)?
As already mentioned: OpenBSD is free. Getting NeXTstep or OpenStep in original versions is a matter of hanging out on eBay and elsewhere. Well, almost... ;-)
Quote from: "TheNeil"6. Can I use my existing external Apple CD-ROM to install from?
In fact Apple's external CD-ROMs like the 600e or 300 e are the best I know of to use with a NeXT. Even the older Apple SC CD and the stylish PowerCD work perfectly together.
Quote from: "TheNeil"So...where do I go from here? :?:
First of all: go for an appropiate hard disk, most valueable information can be found here:
http://www.nextcomputers.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=62For NeXTstep or OpenStep You'll have to see for yourself (sorry :( I know how that feels...) And another thing: please do not feel offended when reading this but many of Your questions are already answered in this forum. This is not to insult You but to let You know that this community is far the best knowledge place around for NeXT related stuff ;-)
J
Quote from: "Jenne"For NeXTstep or OpenStep You'll have to see for yourself (sorry :( I know how that feels...) And another thing: please do not feel offended when reading this but many of Your questions are already answered in this forum. This is not to insult You but to let You know that this community is far the best knowledge place around for NeXT related stuff ;-)
J
No insult taken - I was merely asking what the next thing that I need to do would be (rather than 'where's the next site I need to look at?' ;)).
I have a few 50 pin SCSI drives sat on my shelf of varying sizes so just wanted to check whether or not I could use one of them - sounds like it should be a breeze (as long as I avoid Quantum Fireball drives). Same goes for the cables and external CD drive.
As there's no sign of any NeXTStep or OpenStep on eBay UK I'll have a look at BSD. One question though, do I have to hold down any keys or do anything to get the machine to boot up from an external drive or will the machine be smart enough to do it on its own?
Thanks for the answers so far
First of all You'll have to look for a SCSI drive which can be jumpered for special termination settings like not only "terminated" but also the kind of termination like "termination power from bus" or "termination power from drive" etc. Most IBM drives, Seagates and else offer these options, the Fireballs I know off (Mac drives) don't.
It might be a good idea if You are posting the model names of Your drives, would shorten search and communication a bit, I suppose ;-)
I can not tell You much about OpenBSD but I think like NeXTstep and OpenStep this one needs a floppy boot diskette in order to install the OS. Those floppy images can be downloaded off the OpenBSD site. Apple offers those images for NeXTstep and OpenStep at no cost but You still need the installation media for a full install. Those images need a Windows with a little app called "Rawrite". This app writes the boot images to a floppy so You can use them in Your NeXT machine. In case You don't own a Windows system You can use Virtual PC or an old Mac 6100 with DOS card and installed Windows in order to write these images along with Rawrite.
Just like older Windows systems a NeXT system looks for a floppy inserted with a boot system first before checking other drives. NeXTstations with a "turbo" addition in their model name can boot off a CD directly without a floppy as far as I know but I did never tested it.
J
you may have to drop into the firmware and tell the firmware to default to the hdd. It may already be set to that and will pick the drive up once you have on installed, though.
I see. I've been to the Apple site and downloaded the boot disk image for NeXTstep 3.3 which I'll get onto a floppy disk tonight (stuck at work right now). I'd read somewhere else that I might not be able to boot from CD depending on the ROM version so this should work regardless of what chip is plugged in. After that then I suppose it's either go for BSD or bide my time until a NeXTstep/OpenStep install CD comes along. Just getting the thing to do something will be a big step forward though.
As an side, I'm running my machine through a non-NeXT monitor (Eizo F57) via a 13W3 to VGA adapter and the display is in mono. It's a colour machine though so is it the adapter that forcing to display mono or do I need to set some sort of system option (if such a thing exists)? Not the end of the world if I have to live in mono but it'd be nice to really see what the machine can really do.
I'll also have a hunt through my hard drives and see what I have available. I know that there are some non-Quantum drives there so something should be up to the job. :)
The firmware is in mono :) you won't get color until you have an OS booted up that'll stick the graphics hardware in color mode. my Turbo Color station boots at first in mono.
you might be able to buy a hdd from a user here with openstep/nextstep preinstalled. i think someone was still selling some.
Quote from: "helf"The firmware is in mono :) you won't get color until you have an OS booted up that'll stick the graphics hardware in color mode. my Turbo Color station boots at first in mono.
Ah, that's what I was hoping and that it wasn't some bizarre 'glitch'.
I'll give the boot floppy a shot first and see what's what. I'll also have a hunt to see if any of those pre-installed drives are still available.
The boot floppy won't do much without a installation CD :P
Quote from: "helf"The boot floppy won't do much without a installation CD :P
How 'won't do much' is 'won't do much'?
As long as it actually boots from the floppy (regardless of what it actually does) I'll be happy - at least I'll know that the floppy drive works ;)
well, the floppy will start trying to find a cd and error out... I've not really used the boot floppies much. I already have either booted to CD or cloned a HDD
Quote from: "Jenne"
Quote from: "TheNeil"4. What OS can I install?
NeXTstep 3.3 (maybe even older versions) and of course OpenStep 4.2. There are some OpenBSD distributions out there for black hardware but I never tested those...
Just for the record, NetBSD supports 68K black hardware. OpenBSD was forked from NetBSD about a decade ago give-or-take but doesn't support black. FreeBSD was adopted into OS X.
My fault, yes. I never got into deep with xBSDs. I once thought about installing these to my Cobalt Qubes but dropped that idea. Sorry for misinformation!
J
OK that was a bit of an unmitigated disaster. The boot disk didn't do anything and both of the HDs that I tried didn't want to know either.
The floppy disk ejected when I powered down but showed no other signs of life (didn't seem to spin, get read or anything) - is there a key I need to hold down or something? I was using the 3.3 boot disk image from the Apple site.
The HDs (Seagate ST3600N and ST32151N) both lit up (as in their onboard LEDs lit up) but both refused to actually spin up. It could be that the two of them were sat on the shelf due to the fact that they're both broken (can't remember - it's possible). I'll get a working drive form one of my Macs at the weekend and see if that works any better.
So no further forward :(
you have to press command + tild ~ and then type bfd for boot floppy drive
how did you manage with rawrite? can you help me on this?
http://www.nextcomputers.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1341
Quote from: "slomacuser"you have to press command + tild ~ and then type bfd for boot floppy drive
how did you manage with rawrite? can you help me on this?
http://www.nextcomputers.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1341
I got it to work. See your thread to see if what I did helps any
I'll try using the command+~ to see if that makes any difference
OK now I'm getting frustrated.
Tried firing the slab up again last night but it just wouldn't do anything when I hit command+~. I tried holding the keys down as I powered up, as the 'testing system' message appeared, holding down both command keys etc. and it just went straight to the 'booting from network' message.
As I've been powering up via the keyboard's power key I was assuming that the keyboard was OK but does anyone know how I could verify it? Typically it's the non-ADB type so even if such a thing could work, I can't even borrow a keyboard from one of my Macs :(
In this state Your machine simply finds nothing to boot from, so You will have to connect a CD drive and / or a harddisk at last. Are You sure You pressed the right keys? On non-ADB-Stations it looks like this:
http://www.blackmac.ch/nextstation/pages/software.html (sorry, all in German)
If pressed the ROM monitor should pop up...
J
Quote from: "Jenne"In this state Your machine simply finds nothing to boot from, so You will have to connect a CD drive and / or a harddisk at last. Are You sure You pressed the right keys? On non-ADB-Stations it looks like this:
http://www.blackmac.ch/nextstation/pages/software.html (sorry, all in German)
If pressed the ROM monitor should pop up...
J
Ah, that's not the keyboard that I have. On mine the tilda (~) is just to left of the Enter key (on the same key as the '{' and '[').
I'll give the keys marked on the site a try and see if that helps any. I'm assuming that even with no HD or CD drive connected, it'll still enter the ROM monitor
Ok I'm making progress but I'm still not up and running.
Spent a bit of time just messing around this afternoon and got the slab to go into the ROM monitor (command+~ didn't work but command+[top left key on keypad] did). Setup the boot params so that it tries to boot from SCSI drive rather than network etc. etc. etc.
Then tried booting from floppy disk. The drive chugs away but then complains with the following message:
NeXT> bfd<enter>
boot fd(0,0,0)
Bad version 0xb80000fa
Bad cksum
Bad cksum
Bad cksum
Bad label
NeXT>
I've tried re-running Rawrite with the floppy disk images from the Apple site (both the 3.3 boot disk and 3.3 floppy driver disk) on two different PC's, with different floppy disks (just to avoid any chance of a dodgy drive or a dodgy disk) but keep getting the same results. Tried running both with my Apple CD-ROM hooked up and not hooked up but no joy either way.
Anybody got any ideas?
As far as I know there are two versions of RawWrite and the later one caused troubles so I used the first one (think something like version 0.7 or such).
And of course I bought new diskettes - quite hard to find by now over here. Maybe this helps.
J
The Quantum Fireball drives will work in a slab. One of my turbo color NeXTstations has a Fireball 1280S in it and it works fine (it's the one with the Seagate ST51080N that I can't get to work).
So, if you've got a Quantum drive, give it a try.
James
Quote from: "jheis"The Quantum Fireball drives will work in a slab. One of my turbo color NeXTstations has a Fireball 1280S in it and it works fine...
James
I'm going to have to second James on this one. I also have a 1280S in my slab, a turbo mono.
Ah so the Fireball might work? That's good news as one of my Macs has a second drive in it.
I'll give the older version of Rawrite a try but can anyone just confirm which disk image I need to use? I've tried the Boot Floppy and Floppy Driver disks but the link to the Motorola disk image is dead.
Quote from: "TheNeil"I'll give the older version of Rawrite a try but can anyone just confirm which disk image I need to use? I've tried the Boot Floppy and Floppy Driver disks but the link to the Motorola disk image is dead.
Here's a link to the Motorola boot floppy image that we have in the archives.
http://www.nextcomputers.org/NeXTfiles/Software/NEXTSTEP/Floppy_Images/3.3_Moto_Boot_Disk.floppyimageThere's also a copy of Rawrite in the floppy images folder.
http://www.nextcomputers.org/NeXTfiles/Software/NEXTSTEP/Floppy_Images/There's a few other things that you can try. I've had trouble in the past with old floppies, so you may want to try a brand new one as Jenne mentioned. Also, if you have a Windows box you can try RawWrite for Windows.
http://www.chrysocome.net/rawwriteThe site seems to be down so I put a copy of the file in the floppy images folder (rawwritewin-0.7.zip). Sounds like you're getting close to having it running. :)
Neil:
FYI the (working) jumper settings on my Quantum 1280S are:
TE (termination enable)
A0 (SCSI ID# 1)
James
AARRGGHH
OK, I've downloaded the disk image, managed to write it to a floppy disk (both Rawrite and Rawrite2 didn't want to know but WinRawrite was happy with it), booted the slab and...error.
If I go into the ROM monitor and try to boot from the floppy disk (bfd) I get:
Exception #3 (0xc) at 0x1000374
If I try it again I then get:
Exception #2 (0x8) at 0x4380012
I've tried a couple of different floppies, with and without the CD-ROM hooked up but it seems to make no difference
Quote from: "TheNeil"
I've tried a couple of different floppies, with and without the CD-ROM hooked up but it seems to make no difference
What hardware/OS combinations are available to you that include a floppy drive?
This looks to me like the internal SCSI chain is mis-configurated somehow. Did You terminate the end of the chain? Did You use "Termination power from bus"?
Jenne: I've made sure that the CD drive has a SCSI terminator plugged in, there's no internal HD (yet)(wanted to just get to the point where I need the drive before I actually worry about openign that particular can of worms).
Cubist: I don't understand what you mean. All I have at my disposal in terms of software are the downloadable floppy images and a NeXTStep 3.3. CD. As for hardware it's either an Apple CD ROM, a Pioneer CD multi-changer, and the slab's internal floppy.
Hmm...
I suppose You connected the CD ROM externally and an additional harddrive also externally. It may work for You but it didn´t work for me as I made my first steps into NeXT machines.
After mounting the HD internally (and terminating that one) I connected the CD ROM externally terminated with an ACTIVE (<-!!!!) termination block. At least that worked for me.
J
Quote from: "Jenne"Hmm...
I suppose You connected the CD ROM externally and an additional harddrive also externally. It may work for You but it didn´t work for me as I made my first steps into NeXT machines.
After mounting the HD internally (and terminating that one) I connected the CD ROM externally terminated with an ACTIVE (<-!!!!) termination block. At least that worked for me.
J
In some cases just sticking a terminator on the end of the internal cable will suffice to get past this and allow it to boot external devices.
Chef
Quote from: "TheNeil"Jenne: I've made sure that the CD drive has a SCSI terminator plugged in, there's no internal HD (yet)(wanted to just get to the point where I need the drive before I actually worry about openign that particular can of worms).
You have an unterminated SCSI cable inside? Don't do that.
Quote from: "TheNeil"Cubist: I don't understand what you mean. All I have at my disposal in terms of software are the downloadable floppy images and a NeXTStep 3.3. CD. As for hardware it's either an Apple CD ROM, a Pioneer CD multi-changer, and the slab's internal floppy.
I'm trying to determine what options are available to you for creating a boot floppy. But the SCSI thing comes first...
Ahh, it's all starting to make sense now.
As the slab was originally setup to boot from a network there was no hard drive (or even cables) inside. I was assuming that it'd boot via an external CD drive.
I'll try throwing in one of the Seagate drives (terminated) and see if that makes any difference.
Quote from: "TheNeil"As the slab was originally setup to boot from a network there was no hard drive (or even cables) inside. I was assuming that it'd boot via an external CD drive.
No internal SCSI cables with a properly-terminated external SCSI chain might work. It's just the mirror image of the normal configuration (internal, terminated cable, no cable or termination on the external connector). Haven't found the relevant details in the NCR docs, however....
Just one question: How likely is it that the SCSI bus could be screwed?
I only ask as I've had a tested and working (in my Mac anyway) HD plugged into the slab and...nothing. The drive (a Seagate ST3600N) sits there with it's green light on (constantly) but it makes not the slightest attempt to spin up. It's obviously getting power but just isn't spinning (and to double check I tried two other drives and both did the same thing, and tried a different SCSI cable with exactly the same result). I then tried using an external SCSI HD (using it's own external PSU) but hooked up directly to the internal SCSI bus - powers up, spins and no error message (then tried running the Motorola boot disk and got the familiar 'Exception #3 (0xc) at 0x1000374' :().
Using just the internal power connector and switching on vebose mode and SCSI test in the boot params and I get 'error code 65'
I just remembered, the very first day I got my first NeXT, a Color Station, I was eagerly trying to install NS 3.3 on it using a LaCie CD ROM borrowed of my friends Quadra 800. I was using a 2gb LP Seagate Hawk borrowed out of my 840av and I was banging my head against a wall, this went on for 3 days with mysterious SCSI errors which would not allow me to do anything.
Out of pure desperation I took all the ram out of the NeXT and borrowed the ram out of a Mac IIci, I got the NeXT to boot and install fine. That was a long time ago and I don't recall the exact details but I do recall that the IIci worked fine with the ram the NeXT didn't like.
If you have spare ram I urge you to try it.
OK I tried some alternative RAM (and who'd have known that it doesn't take 16Mb modules ;))(also tried it with some 4Mb SIMMs and it made difference). Seemed to make no difference.
Tried plugging in a 50-pin to SCA SCSI adapter (and an 18Gb Seagate ST118202LC drive) to the internal bus and...it spins up (so success).
Tried plugging in Apple 600e external CD ROM...exception message 3.
Tried plugging in Apple 300e Plus external CD ROM...exception message 3.
Tried using Apple active SCSI terminator (rather than the non-active one)...exception message 3.
Tried using a different external SCSI cable...exception message 3.
So...I'm stuck as to what to try next. The RAM looks good, the HD is working (the slab passes its power on SCSI tests), the CD ROM is working (on other machines), the floppy disk has been written form three different floppy drives to God alone knows how many disks etc. and still I get the same exception message. :(
Ok, it sounds a bit odd but as long as SCSI rules most of the time seem to have more exceptions than in fact rules You may try this:
Get Yourself a long flat band SCSI cable with at least two connectors (one for the HD and one for the CD ROM, it doesn't matter if there are more connectors to that cable) and connect this one INTERNALLY to the slab's SCSI port (You will have to run the station with opened housing then). This also implements that You will have to open the CD ROM's housing to get that cable connected to the drive then. Try to connect the CD ROM in first place of the chain and then the HD at the end of the chain. The HD should get terminated, recieving (not sending) the termination power from the BUS. Disconnect all EXTERNAL SCSI hardware and by using the appropiate jumpers for each drive assign a LOWER SCSI ID to the HD than to the CD ROM. Terminate that construction first and give the installation process another try.
If this fails assign a HIGHER SCSI ID to the HD than to the CD ROM.
If this shuoldn't work UN-terminate that construction and try it again - but read on before trying! (I know that it's not advised to run all this unterminated but I remember quite a bunch of Apple machines that would refuse to work with terminations enabled, maybe this works with this slab, too. On the other hand the SCSI controller might crash in complete - so try this if ANYTHING ELSE FAILED!)
What's the benefit of this?
If this works You will at least know if the internal SCSI BUS is ok or not, to be more exact: if the SCSI controller is able to handle at least internal SCSI hardware. As long as the HD INTERNALLY seems to do what it's expected to do I think that this BUS is working fine. So if You are able to install the OS with that described construction You could try external hardware after restarting the slab.
If this should fail try it the other way:
disconnect the INTERNAL SCSI flat band cable and try all this just externally. If this should fail, too it seems that the controller is bad somehow.
I'm beginning to remember having the same problems with my monoStation (no turbo, no color). I'm not sure anymore but I exchanged the original 400 MB drive with a 2 GB drive, to be more exact: a HD which had something like 2.01 GB capacity - and not 2.00 GB or less. For some odd reason only HDs with a lower capacity worked fine for me, using larger drives threw SCSI errors to me like hell...
Another helpful thing could be the usage of an external 100 MB ZIP drive (SCSI) from Iomega - most Apple users still own these. These drives are working with some sort of active termination, just using the SCSI IDs from 5 to 6. Connecting one of these to the END of an EXTERNAL chain (and of course terminated) and using all the other drives between that ZIP and the slab's SCSI port) might help, too. I can not tell You why this worked for me in at least three cases, I'm no SCSI Pro, but maybe it helps You. JAZ drives will do the same job, it doesn't matter if a ZIP or JAZ cartridge is inserted or not.
J
Well it'll mean a massive sprawl of cables over the desk (nothing new there though ;)) but I can see where you're going with this so I'll give it a try and see whether it does the job.