Hey everyone - cool to be on here! I'm a NeXT newbie and have become interested in Nextstep through my love of Mac OS X and have been super interested in getting back to the old school roots in the amazing OS that is Nextstep/Openstep
A friend got me a Nextstep 3.3 CD-Rom for a Christmas present and I'm starting to consider either approaching making myself a whitebox to run Nextstep 3.3 (I'm a newbie to building a box but my bro in law has done before) or maybe hunting down an older laptop that could be Nextstep 3.3 compatible... I'd love any tips or suggestions in regards to specs from any boxes ppl may have put together (and whether you got parts second hand or new etc) or any laptops that were suited to Nextstep. I came across Henry's Next P4 page which looked cool and basically wanted to see if there were any other examples of whiteboxes out there?
Thanks and look forward to chatting about all things NeXT!
Welcome! If you have an Intel-Based Macintosh, you could run NeXTSTEP 3.3 under VMWare Fusion. NeXTSTEP runs very well under VMWare with 1024x768 color graphics, networking, and sound. No need to muck about building a white box unless that's something you really want to do.
Your other option if you really like NeXTSTEP would be scrounging up a vintage NeXTStation. I'm working on resurrecting a NeXTStation Color at this time. Check the classifieds and eBay. You might get lucky and find one down under in need of rescue.
Take Care,
Brian Moore
between white and black, there's also the possibility to pickup a sparcstation (SS5/110 are a popular match with NS 3.3) or an HP workstation (gecko).
pros : dirt cheap (I've bought a SS20 to backup my SS10 for 30 € last week), much better hardware than any generic PC, native port of NS 3.3 (emulation works OK, but it doesn't "feel" exactly like the real thing), bigger screen than 1024x768, faster than any black hardware still alive, stylish hardware (very thin cases, smooth run, not much noise). Runs NS as if meant to... er... well, they are.
cons : not black (argh!), very limited list of supported hardware (go fetch a SS10 soundbox, just for the fun - I've managed to grab one, but it was sheer luck), many "strange" parts difficult to find, like special RAM and such, even sparcstation keyboards are a specific Sun model, as well as, would you believe it, scsi cd-rom readers (generaly shorters than apple and PC ones, by less than a inch - Mwwa mwwa mwwaaaa, what a cunning plan to conquer the world), setup completely different from a PC (apple & sun share the OBP, but not many mac users even know how to get there, much less what to do with it ; it's not difficult to use "by the book", it's just intolerant to tinkerers). I don't know much HP, but I suppose it's not really different from Sun (do the gecko even use a PS/2 keyboard or the funny telephone plug they used to have back in the days of lore ?)
In a word, workstations are great when everything fits ; then, running NS is a blessing (this applies to the black hardware, too). But as soon as one is willing to "push the enveloppe" (or must hunt for a needed part that's missing from the bundle that's been bought), it can really turn real ugly into a treasure hunt Long John Silver would be proud to survive. Having setup a Qemu emulation alongside, I really prefer using NS on the Sun 10, but then again, I had already most of the components. Though, as I related elsewhere, I had a hell of a time finding a rom matching a new CPU...
Like mauve said, the old "supported" Sun/HP boxes do make great alternatives to black hardware. Their fast enough for NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP & like m68k, they pretty much just work out of the box. :-) Each "architecture" has it own pluses/minus. Like the HP/Sun boxes can have flaky serial ports. Sometimes when compiling things, something might run fine on one system & then fail to compile on another. <-- Rare, but I've seen it a time or two. Since both my HP Gecko/Sun Sparc 5 are both 100/110Mhz each it's kind of interesting comparing them. The Sparc is actually quite a bit faster yet it's running OPENSTEP 4.2 while the Gecko can only run NEXTSTEP 3.3. x86 is definately the way to go for speed. When building an x86 box, it's hit & miss w/ compatible hardware. Henry Koplien has a great page for reference though on a "modern" x86 system running both NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP. If I lived in Germany, I'd have to have him build me one or two. ;-) His page is here:
http://www.famkoplien.de/henry/NeXT/Hardware/NeXTP4.htmlFor myself, I opted for a couple of older thinkpads that are completely 100% supported by OPENSTEP. I have the 760L & a few 560E's. I love them. Everything just works like it should. I also have one older/faster x86 system that uses the VESA driver & no sound. I don't worry about it since it's just used for compiling. While away from home, I have several different "Virtual" systems depending on the Operating system of the day, OpenSolaris or Mac OS X. :-) As far as software goes, most stuff is compiled QUAD-FAT, but some stuff is only available for m68k/x86. If you have the room/time/$$$. Get one of each. ;-) I love all mine. lol. Take care.
Oh mauve, the HP 712's use the PS/2 Keyboard & Mouse. I "think" the 715's do also. It's been a while since I checked, but I'm pretty sure those are the only ones that do. The other models use the "HP" style keyboard/mouse you mentioned.
Quote from: "kb7sqi"
For myself, I opted for a couple of older thinkpads that are completely 100% supported by OPENSTEP. I have the 760L & a few 560E's. I love them. Everything just works like it should.
This sentence caught my eye ; I've got a couple of TP idling in the closet, and was wondering if they would be compatible ; one is a 380ED, the other a 365. I "guess" the 365 might just work (a bit older, more chances to find drivers, and overall pretty basic in all departments), but it sadly lacks a cd reader. So, I will perhaps netinstall it when I'm a little more confident in the process.
The one I'd really love to see running NS 3.3 or OS 4.2 is the 380ED, but I suspect it won't be that much compatible. Especially, the video part is "tricky", to tell things mildly. I had a very bad time configuring linux on it and it took eons for X to have a decent video driver. Do you know where I can find a TP compatibility list, just so I don't wipe the disk only to get stuck by incompatibilities ? TIA.
Quote from: "mauve"Quote from: "kb7sqi"
For myself, I opted for a couple of older thinkpads that are completely 100% supported by OPENSTEP. I have the 760L & a few 560E's. I love them. Everything just works like it should.
This sentence caught my eye ; I've got a couple of TP idling in the closet, and was wondering if they would be compatible ; one is a 380ED, the other a 365. I "guess" the 365 might just work (a bit older, more chances to find drivers, and overall pretty basic in all departments), but it sadly lacks a cd reader. So, I will perhaps netinstall it when I'm a little more confident in the process.
The one I'd really love to see running NS 3.3 or OS 4.2 is the 380ED, but I suspect it won't be that much compatible. Especially, the video part is "tricky", to tell things mildly. I had a very bad time configuring linux on it and it took eons for X to have a decent video driver. Do you know where I can find a TP compatibility list, just so I don't wipe the disk only to get stuck by incompatibilities ? TIA.
Hi mauve;
Check out this thread on laptop drivers:
http://www.nextcomputers.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1094and here's a good site w/ specs on all the older thinkpads:
http://www.ertyu.org/steven_nikkel/thinkpadspecs.htmland of course RacerX's Rhapsody list as well:
http://www.rhapsodyos.org/hardware/laptops/the_list_1.htmlDepending on which 365 model you have, you might have good luck w/ that as well as the 380ED. I don't think you'll get sound working on the 380ED though. Hope that helps. Take care.
I very much appreciated the hints you provided ; from the outside, the 365X (that's the one I got) would be perfect, but I don't have a cd reader to connect it to. Worst part, I saw one external unit just yesterday in a pawn shop, on sale for a platry 5€, but I was in a hurry and didn't took the time to really check the model, to know if it would work with my TP, so I let it pass (banging head on keyboard). I fear it may be quite complex to achieve a proper network install. I think as soon as I can find a moment, I'd rather give the 380ED a go (it's easier, and I've got 2 of them, so I can really dedicate one to this project) ; trouble is I've been badly scalded by the NeoMagic video chipset, it was years ago, but I still I don't feel like starting another war. Anyway, whatever the outcome, I'll let you know.
You can go with nearly every new hardware. Drawbacks, you need an ISA for sound (well I managed to get sound out of the box with a PCI, but no recording), AGP for graphics, and PCI for SCSI and network. Positive is, industrial boards still support all these busses :D .
If you need assistance, feel free to drop me a PM.
BTW for the later discussion, best Laptop (still own one) is a Thinkpad 760ED, only sound is missing.
Intruder
Quote from: "Intruder"You can go with nearly every new hardware. Drawbacks, you need an ISA for sound (well I managed to get sound out of the box with a PCI, but no recording), AGP for graphics, and PCI for SCSI and network. Positive is, industrial boards still support all these busses :D .
...
Intruder
That sounds great! So is there any way to run NeXTSTEP 3.3 for example on a Dell Precision M6300 laptop? I have a few of those. But they have no longer a floppy drive.
What other contemporary hardware would be recommended to run NeXTSTEP?
There are a few Thinkpads that work very well with 3.3 - the 600 and 760-series come to mind.
They are black, they are very well made, and work almost 100% (Mwave modems do not), not to mention super cheap (and portable).
Newer machines are great, if for no other reason than 32MB can get to be seriously limiting!
There is a ton of PC hardware that runs 3.3 *perfectly* - there are a few Dell boxes that are good here - ISA sound, Matrox or RagePro video, 3Com or Intel NIC, etc.
Look for well-known branded hardware made between 1998 and 2003 at junk shops, etc., could be a $10 ticket to NeXT Land!
If you don't want to wait - emulate!
I have an old Dell Inspiron 8000 I bought new in 2000 that is otherwise only good for Windows 2000 (and that's hardly good for anything of today's software).
Its specs are:
CPU: Pentium III 850 MHz
RAM: 512 MB
Video Controller: ATI M4 with 32 MB Video Memory
Audio Controller: ESS Maestro 3
Hard Drive: PATA 20 GB
Module Bay: Diskette Drive
Fixed Optical Drive: DVD-ROM
So I just gave it a try to install NeXTSTEP on it.
NeXTSTEP tries to start booting but doesn't get very far:
NEXTSTEP Boot1 v3.3.3.8
.......Then the screen turns white (that might be a display issue) and after a moment the floppy reads for a short time and that's it.
And that's the same with original and the freshly imaged Intel Boot Disc.
So I tried my old Dell Precision M50 which I got in March 2003. And this one actually boots from the floppy drive and starts the installation process.
The issue is that I have no clue which SCSI controller to pick for CD and Hard Drive. I picked one of the EISA and one of the PCI ISA controllers and got all the way to the white Mach OS install screen. But my picks where obviously wrong as the OS couldn't find neither the CD nor the HDD.
Here are the specs of my Dell M50:
CPU: Mobile Pentium 4 @ 2.2/1.2 GHz
RAM: 1024 MB
Video Controller: Nvidia Quadro4 700GL with 64 MB Video Memory
Audio Controller: Crystal 4205
Hard Drive: Toshiba MK1032GAX (PATA 60 GB)
Module Bay: Diskette Drive
Fixed Optical Drive: DVD-ROM
IDE ATA/ATAPI-Controller: Intel 82801CAM Ultra ATA Storage-Controller-248A
Network Adapter: 3Com 3C920
Any suggestions which drivers might work?
EDIT:
The Additional Drivers Floppy (created from the image in the archive) does not show the EIDE drivers. If I remember right this was also an issue I had with the original disk that I got with the NeXTSTEP 3.3 Academic Bundle. Is that a bug in the installer or is that specific package invalid during the black screen?
EDIT END
Quote from: "itomato"...
If you don't want to wait - emulate!
Well, that would actually be my preference. Is there a way to create a virtual NeXTSTEP machine under Windows 7 Ultimate? I have Virtual PC and XP mode installed. But it seems to me that the version of Virtual PC that is included in Windows 7 Pro and Ultimate is only a runtime environment that doesn't allow to create your own virtual machines.
I looked at VMware (Workstation 7.1) but I'm not willing to shell out $200 without knowing if it is actually working.
You need the 3.3 boot disk, and the regular driver disk (
http://next.68k.org/otto/html/openstep.se/resources/files/bootdisks/nextstep/3.3/3.3_Driver_Disk.floppyimage), or the beta, if you like.
You probably want to select the 'Primary/Secondary' IDE/ATA controller *TWICE*, and as a precautionary measure, select the 'Adaptec 154x' driver - even if you don't have a SCSI controller, so the system can accurately detect the CDROM. I think any SCSI driver will do, but YMMV.
Check out neozeed's qemu installation guide (
http://www.nextcomputers.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=201) - it should get you up and running with an unpatched system.
If you're having problems getting the disk recognized, try swapping in a smaller disk - under 10GB
I tried the following disks:
- 3.3 Core Drivers
- 3.3 Driver Disk
- 3.3 Addl Drivers
But while the IDE driver is shown on the Driver Disk for the Hard Drive it doesn't come up for the CD Drive even though it is on the disk. This seems to be a bug in the installer. I know that there must be a workaround but I don't know it. I think it should be in the gray window. You probably have to enter the ID and path for the CD drive manually. But I have no idea how to do that precisely.
BTW the Hard Drive is recognized so the size doesn't seem to be an issue.
OK, I got NeXTSTEP 3.3 on the M50 installed. The trick was to use the drivers from the Beta floppy - any SCSI for CD drive (that's just a dummy) and the Primary/Secondary(Dual) EIDE and ATAPI Device driver for the hard drive.
Biggest issue now is to find a display driver that allows high resolution and color.
Other drivers missing are for network and sound
Any suggestions?
Your 3c920
may work with this driver:
http://support.apple.com/kb/TA45881?viewlocale=en_USYou'll have to do a little device ID manipulation with Configure.app to get it recognized, if there's any chance of using it.