Greetings, all.
I have two dreams:
1- a NeXT hardware emulator
2- a PPC Mac emulator capable of running OS X Server v1.2.
The reason I want the first one is to be able to run Improv, which unfortunately was never released as a fat binary - it is m68k only. :( So, even tho I'm running OPENSTEP in VMware, I still can't run my Improv.
The reason I want the second one is because I no longer have a PPC Mac capable of running OS X Server. SheepShaver is a great emulator, but there is no support for running OS X Server v 1.x on it. Sure there's Rhapsody DR2 in VMware, but I want to be able to run Blue Box and play with all the other stuff that came in OS X Server.
Is there any hope for these two things?
Thanks, all.
I can just agree! It would be great to have a NeXT hardware emulator!
A powerful and up-to-date PPC-Mac emulator would also be great!
As for the PPC-Emulation you may want to try qemu. Maybe it works, or maybe at least you find something about OS X Server emulation in the qemu-forums:
http://qemu-forum.ipi.fi/qemu is a quite powerful emulator. Maybe it is also the key to a NeXT emulator.
I don't know if it can do 68k emulation at the moment, but i am sure some developer with some free time and advanced programming skills may be able to get it working.
Sadly qemu misses a graphical user interface in Mac OS X, since development of Q.app has been stopped.
QEMU looks promising for the PPC OS X Server solution, since there's another guy who is interested in that and is working on it.
I still hope for a NeXT emulator, but I don't ever expect to see one.
I'd have thought that emulating the 68k hardware should be possible, just by using code from UAE or shapeshifter (a Mac 68k emulator for Amiga) or one of the atari ST emulators. What needs writing is the roms and the display chips emulation (especially for Dimension cards). It's still a tough job if you don't own a machine or two.
Noth, I too have thought that the emulator shouldn't be that difficult. m68k emulators exist, and we have the ROMs. I personally own 3 NeXTs - a prototype Cube, and 2 68040-25 stations, all mono. Since my systems are all mono, as far as I'm concerned the emulation of a m68k NeXT doesn't need to be color. That also simplifies the emulator ... plus, anyone who wants to run NeXT apps in color can run in VMware, or can NXHost the app from the m68k emulated system.
I imagine you'd probably need to emulate the DMA controllers among other things. The NeXT systems aren't just 68k machines with fancy video hardware, they have some more ICs that the OS would probably miss if not emulated :P
I could be wrong, of course.
helf, do you own the Cube in your userpic? 4x 68040 motherboards - wow.
I have 3 motherboards for my Cube - 2x 68030-25, and 1x 68040-25. My stations are both mono 68040-25 units.
I did. Sold it to a forum member a few years ago.
Regarding running m68k NeXT apps, another idea came to me that might be a potential solution for this.
What about something that is simply a CPU emulator, something that runs on the Intel version of NeXTSTEP or OPENSTEP, and emulates the m68k CPU, passing the API calls to the Intel OS? I'm envisioning something similar to what Apple did in System 7 during the m68k-to-PPC transition. Now, the Apple solution was automatic, but I wouldn't mind having to run some sort of wrapper application.
I mean, the whole purpose is to be able to run m68k NeXT applications. Since we have an x86 version of the OS, perhaps the solution for running the m68k apps could be an application that runs on the x86 version of the OS.
Again, I don't know if what I'm suggesting is reasonable, but it might be easier than trying to emulate the entire hardware platform.
Thoughts?
it sounds quite interessting. as i am no developer, i can't tell if this is easier or harder than doing a complete system emulator.
the benefit would be, that you could run your 68k nextstep apps on every platform where you can run the intel version of nextstep (native or emulated). so no porting of the emulator has to be done.
but the more elegant way would be a complete next hardware emulator. so you could also run your older versions of nextstep from 0.9 through 3.0.
i also don't know, if there may be some compatibility issues, when older 68k apps try to pass theire API calls to nextstep 3.3 intel.
Hello,
Writing an hardware emulator for next 68k machines is one of my projects, for now I did not start, just seek enough information to begin...
It's not my first emulator, I did some work on lisa:
http://idle-lisa-emu.sourceforge.net/http://www.alternative-system.com/emulation-lisa.htm (in french)
The first elements I need are:
_ an early version of a system knowed to work (faster and smaller early versions are better at this stage).
_ a rom version that works with the system.
_ some elements of memory mapping, hardware (may find this infos in netBSD sources).
You would have an endian-ness issue with passing 68k datastructs from the emulated program to an intel host wouldn't you?
@gilles
i think there are some people in the forums, that can provide you with early versions of nextstep. i may find a dump-image of an early version of nextstep too.
you can find rom-files here:
http://www.nextcomputers.org/NeXTfiles/Software/ROM_Files/please keep us up to date about your progress!
good to know, that someone is working on it!
I good starting point could also be hatari
http://hatari.berlios.de/news.shtmlsince it seems to be emulate also the DSP chip.
"This version brings you a basically working DSP 56k emulation which is required for many Falcon games and demos."
First I will unassemble the rom and read specific parts of netBSD, I'll choose the 68k emulation core after some tests...
Other options are mac emulators and amiga emulators, also... the old musashi core (used in Mame (and in my Lisa emulator)) is probably the better choice to start with...
I haven't commented recently, but I've been watching, with great interest, the recent activity in this thread. I am very much looking forward to either a m68k NeXT emulator, or an app that I can run on my Intel NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP to run m68k apps! Thanks guys!
After a first set of tests,
We need a CPU core that emulates:
MMU & FPU
It seems that 68040 MMU has a better support in a very few emulators. 68030 has in initial support in Aranym and now also in experimental versions of UAE.
The NextBus is documented.
The ROM seems to map at 0 at reset, a first call to NextBus ID 2 is made in the very first instructions.
Also... It will be... long... :)
Quote from: "gilles"After a first set of tests,
We need a CPU core that emulates:
MMU & FPU
It seems that 68040 MMU has a better support in a very few emulators. 68030 has in initial support in Aranym and now also in experimental versions of UAE.
The NextBus is documented.
The ROM seems to map at 0 at reset, a first call to NextBus ID 2 is made in the very first instructions.
Also... It will be... long... :)
Check out
http://aranym.sourceforge.net/Not only does it have the 68000 (up to 68040 core) but they also have fpu, mmu and a limited DSP support from the falcon.... (the falcon had similar chips to a next)
that's where I would start.
Heck, it even runs LINUX.
Aranym 68k support is a branch of UAE that is now more or less back in UAE (at least for dev versions).
It's probably the best option for a second phase but too complicated for a first try.
1st step:
Play with the ROM and musashi in a 68020 mode + basic mmu emulation.
=> The goal is only to understand the initial boot process
2nd step:
Choose correct 68k emulation core, probably UAE / aranym but it can also be musashi + specific MMU code or a new core (I also need a new 68k core for my lisa emulator, for now no core is correct for every memory fault cases, they are just patched to match specific cases handled by Lisa OS (also true for lisaem)).
I just wanted to ask, if there is any progress on the project so far ...
If I can do anything to help, just tell me (sadly I don't have any programming skills, but maybe there is work to do that doesn't require that)
Quote from: "gilles"First I will unassemble the rom and read specific parts of netBSD, I'll choose the 68k emulation core after some tests...
Other options are mac emulators and amiga emulators, also... the old musashi core (used in Mame (and in my Lisa emulator)) is probably the better choice to start with...
Gilles,
Have you made any further progress with this project?
Quote from: "eagle"Greetings, all.
I have two dreams:
1- a NeXT hardware emulator
2- a PPC Mac emulator capable of running OS X Server v1.2.
The reason I want the first one is to be able to run Improv, which unfortunately was never released as a fat binary - it is m68k only. :( So, even tho I'm running OPENSTEP in VMware, I still can't run my Improv.
The reason I want the second one is because I no longer have a PPC Mac capable of running OS X Server. SheepShaver is a great emulator, but there is no support for running OS X Server v 1.x on it. Sure there's Rhapsody DR2 in VMware, but I want to be able to run Blue Box and play with all the other stuff that came in OS X Server.
Is there any hope for these two things?
Thanks, all.
For your second wish you can try PearPC (
http://emaculation.com/doku.php/pearpc)