Title: Copland
Post by: mrintel on July 11, 2009, 07:07:34 AM
Post by: mrintel on July 11, 2009, 07:07:34 AM
Ok, I know that this is a NeXT forum, but since it had an Apple section (and me being the curious type), I had to ask...
What does everyone know about Copland?
What does everyone know about Copland?
Title: Copland
Post by: domiel on July 11, 2009, 08:32:14 AM
Post by: domiel on July 11, 2009, 08:32:14 AM
Not much except that I'd like to lay my hands on a copy :-)
Title: Copland
Post by: un on July 11, 2009, 10:17:08 AM
Post by: un on July 11, 2009, 10:17:08 AM
They never really had much working from what I've read. There were some developer versions that only ran on particular models and weren't even nearly stable or usable.
Title: Copland
Post by: applefreak on July 12, 2009, 05:01:06 AM
Post by: applefreak on July 12, 2009, 05:01:06 AM
In august 1996 'Developer Release 0′ was sent to a small number of partners but was unstable, crashing and unusuable for development.
http://appledifferent.com/wordpress/2009/03/26/copland-mac-os-that-never-was/
http://appledifferent.com/wordpress/2009/03/26/copland-mac-os-that-never-was/
Title: Copland
Post by: mrintel on July 12, 2009, 02:57:40 PM
Post by: mrintel on July 12, 2009, 02:57:40 PM
Well, I have both versions (DR0 and DR1). I was just wondering what people knew about Copland
Title: Copland
Post by: cubist on July 12, 2009, 07:23:47 PM
Post by: cubist on July 12, 2009, 07:23:47 PM
Quote from: "mrintel"Well, I have both versions (DR0 and DR1). I was just wondering what people knew about CoplandWell, its predecessor, Taligent, produced an object-oriented programming book I never found useful. Not certain how much of that carried into Copland. Would also be interested in hearing more...
Title: Copland
Post by: mrintel on July 12, 2009, 08:32:59 PM
Post by: mrintel on July 12, 2009, 08:32:59 PM
was there ever a release for Taligent?
Title: Copland
Post by: protocol7 on July 27, 2009, 08:50:55 AM
Post by: protocol7 on July 27, 2009, 08:50:55 AM
I don't think Taligent (aka "Pink") really got off the ground.
I was never able to get either Copland build to boot due to lack of the right hardware but I did go poking through the files a long time ago. The ATM screen had a colour version of the old "landscape" picture (http://www.guidebookgallery.org/pics/gui/interface/dialogs/aboutgui/macos11.png) from System 1.1. I took it out with Resedit, resized it to fit and used it in my OS8 install :)
I have the full DDK which included the D11E4 build so I'll dig it out later and see if there's anything else about Copland in there. Also some white papers.
I was never able to get either Copland build to boot due to lack of the right hardware but I did go poking through the files a long time ago. The ATM screen had a colour version of the old "landscape" picture (http://www.guidebookgallery.org/pics/gui/interface/dialogs/aboutgui/macos11.png) from System 1.1. I took it out with Resedit, resized it to fit and used it in my OS8 install :)
I have the full DDK which included the D11E4 build so I'll dig it out later and see if there's anything else about Copland in there. Also some white papers.
Title: Copland
Post by: mrintel on July 27, 2009, 09:09:39 AM
Post by: mrintel on July 27, 2009, 09:09:39 AM
I just ordered a Power Mac 8500 to see if I can get Copland DR1 working. Can't wait to see what it can do (if anything at all)
Title: Copland
Post by: cuby on July 27, 2009, 10:51:27 AM
Post by: cuby on July 27, 2009, 10:51:27 AM
FYI... lots of docs on Copland: http://www.pagetable.com/?p=211
Title: Copland
Post by: protocol7 on July 27, 2009, 11:18:18 AM
Post by: protocol7 on July 27, 2009, 11:18:18 AM
Thanks for that link. I didn't realise there was a D9 build too.
Title: Copland
Post by: mrintel on July 27, 2009, 05:29:30 PM
Post by: mrintel on July 27, 2009, 05:29:30 PM
huh, me neither. Thanks a lot. Love to get my hands on that version.
Title: Copland
Post by: mrintel on August 17, 2009, 12:39:18 PM
Post by: mrintel on August 17, 2009, 12:39:18 PM
Ok, I tried to install Copland, and everything went fine, until the kernel tried to initialize. Then the debugger gave this error...
Access Fault
Kernel: Dispatcher: No kernel stacks available!
Does anybody have any idea as to what I'm doing wrong, if anything at all?
Access Fault
Kernel: Dispatcher: No kernel stacks available!
Does anybody have any idea as to what I'm doing wrong, if anything at all?
Title: Copland
Post by: dru on September 27, 2010, 11:10:28 AM
Post by: dru on September 27, 2010, 11:10:28 AM
Quote from: "mrintel"was there ever a release for Taligent?
There was but not as a standalone OS.
It shipped as Taligent CommonPoint for AIX 4.1 in July '95. Apparently it runs in a AIX-hosted window with its own menus, icons and desktop.
According to IBM docs, it's not compatible with AIX 4.2 and later either.
Title: Copland
Post by: slomacuser on September 27, 2010, 04:06:40 PM
Post by: slomacuser on September 27, 2010, 04:06:40 PM
I installed successfully Copland D11E4 on my PowerMac 7100/80, but it is not useful it is really buggy release ...
movie 1 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/86210/P1010012.MOV
movie 2 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/86210/P1010013.MOV
movie 1 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/86210/P1010012.MOV
movie 2 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/86210/P1010013.MOV
Title: Copland
Post by: mrintel on September 27, 2010, 05:01:27 PM
Post by: mrintel on September 27, 2010, 05:01:27 PM
I guess D11E4 only works on the 1st generation of Power Macs, cause that's all I've ever seen it work on successfully.
Well, I guess I need to get a 6100. Can't wait...!
Anyone else got it to work on their macs?
Well, I guess I need to get a 6100. Can't wait...!
Anyone else got it to work on their macs?
Title: Copland
Post by: protocol7 on September 27, 2010, 05:30:21 PM
Post by: protocol7 on September 27, 2010, 05:30:21 PM
I wonder would it work on a 5400? That's the only Mac I have close enough and I don't think I've ever tried it.
Title: Copland
Post by: slomacuser on September 28, 2010, 12:58:31 AM
Post by: slomacuser on September 28, 2010, 12:58:31 AM
QuoteHardware Supported:
-------------------
NuBus-based Macintoshes: 6100/60, 6100/60AV (no AV functionality), 6100/66, 6100/66 AV (no AV functionality), 6100/66 DOS (no DOS functionality), 7100/66, 7100/66 AV (no AV functionality), 7100/80, 7100/80 AV (no AV functionality), 8100/80, 8100/100, 8100/100 AV (no AV functionality), 8100/110
Nu-Bus-based Performas: 6110CD, 6112CD, 6115CD, 6117CD, 6118CD
PCI-based Macintoshes: 7200/70, 7200/90,7500/100, 8500/120, 9500/120, 9500/132
All Apple keyboards and mice are now supported!
Drives formatted with Drive Setup (other initialization
software may work; if you have trouble, try reinitializing
with Drive Setup 1.0.4 or later).
For builds up to and including DR1, the installer is set to
ensure you have System 7.5 or later on a hard disk 250MB or greater.
Monitors connected to either built-in video or a
card set to 256 colors (8-bit) or Thousands (16-bit).
Title: Copland
Post by: slomacuser on September 28, 2010, 01:14:40 AM
Post by: slomacuser on September 28, 2010, 01:14:40 AM
there is also D7E1 build (Maxwell) ... didn't tried it yet
Quote• *** Very Important *** Copy your scarecrow disk image to another volume, the scarecrow volume will get corrupted over the course of a few test runs.
• *** Very Important *** If you get a message like 'core resources: assertion failed,' replace your finder due to its corrupted resource fork.
• Make disk first aid a startup item, and repair it every time you boot into the conventional system.
Title: Copland
Post by: protocol7 on September 28, 2010, 07:02:02 AM
Post by: protocol7 on September 28, 2010, 07:02:02 AM
D7E1 needs another PowerMac connected as a debugger. D11E4 didn't which is why you're more likely to see it running.
Chances are some unsupported macs might be able to boot Copland, but I think the problem for me is the 5400 uses IDE for the internal drive.
Chances are some unsupported macs might be able to boot Copland, but I think the problem for me is the 5400 uses IDE for the internal drive.
Title: Copland
Post by: bkmoore on September 28, 2010, 11:52:17 AM
Post by: bkmoore on September 28, 2010, 11:52:17 AM
The readme from the D7E1 build (Maxwell) sounds scary. I was expecting for the next line to say you should keep a fire extinguisher next to your Computer at all times when using this build.
On Taligent to quote Aaron Hillegass from the Big Nerd Ranch:
Brian
On Taligent to quote Aaron Hillegass from the Big Nerd Ranch:
QuoteOnce upon a time, there was a company called Taligent. Taligent was created by IBM and Apple to develop a set of tools and libraries like Cocoa. About the time Taligent reached the peak of its mindshare, I met one of its engineers at a trade show. I asked him to create a simple application for me: A window would appear with a button, and when the button was clicked, the words "Hello, World!" would appear in the text field. The engineer created a project and started subclassing madly: subclassing the window and the button and the event handler. Then he started generating code: dozens of lines to get the button and the text field on to the window. After 45 minutes, I had to leave. The app still did not work. That day, I knew that the company was doomed. A couple of years later, Taligent quietly closed its doors forever.
Brian
Title: Copland
Post by: applefreak on September 28, 2010, 03:29:03 PM
Post by: applefreak on September 28, 2010, 03:29:03 PM
The Secrets of Pink, Taligent and Copland (http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/Q4.06/36A61A87-064B-470D-8870-736DD59CEF48.html)
Title: Copland
Post by: mrintel on September 28, 2010, 04:51:32 PM
Post by: mrintel on September 28, 2010, 04:51:32 PM
As far as the documentation goes, D7E1 / Maxwell only works on the 1st gen Power Macs, and I have yet to see any working demos of it.
Title: Copland
Post by: protocol7 on February 08, 2011, 10:36:02 PM
Post by: protocol7 on February 08, 2011, 10:36:02 PM
Quote from: "mrintel"Ok, I tried to install Copland, and everything went fine, until the kernel tried to initialize. Then the debugger gave this error...I also encountered this trying to install onto a 7500. It seems to have a RAM ceiling. I had 96MB installed. Dropping it down to 32MB fixed this and it booted fine.
Access Fault
Kernel: Dispatcher: No kernel stacks available!
Does anybody have any idea as to what I'm doing wrong, if anything at all?
Title: Copland
Post by: mrintel on February 09, 2011, 06:32:12 PM
Post by: mrintel on February 09, 2011, 06:32:12 PM
Hmm... :D
...I'm going to try that on friday. If it works, I will be forever indebted to you...
...I'm going to try that on friday. If it works, I will be forever indebted to you...
Title: Copland
Post by: protocol7 on April 29, 2011, 08:34:03 AM
Post by: protocol7 on April 29, 2011, 08:34:03 AM
Did you have any success? It worked for me on the 7500. Wasn't very stable though.
Title: Copland
Post by: mrintel on April 30, 2011, 08:57:07 PM
Post by: mrintel on April 30, 2011, 08:57:07 PM
Oh...I'm so sorry I didn't reply much earlier. I've been quite busy lately, but I did find time to remove some RAM and it did indeed work. But, the kernal kept crashing on me, so I always had to have a 2nd mac plugged in through a serial port to tell the kernal to continue. Again, sorry it took me so long to respond. I completely forgot about it. :oops:
Title: Copland
Post by: protocol7 on May 01, 2011, 10:04:40 AM
Post by: protocol7 on May 01, 2011, 10:04:40 AM
One thing I did find was that if I had the debugger attached when installing, I had to keep it attached if I wanted D11E4 to boot. But if I installed without having a debugger attached, it would boot fine without it. But even with the debugger attached it's not particularly stable. Just fun to be able to see it up and running.
Title: Copland
Post by: mrintel on May 01, 2011, 01:53:23 PM
Post by: mrintel on May 01, 2011, 01:53:23 PM
True. And I was looking through some old documentation I have, and I noticed that different models of macs had different maximum memory ammounts. I'm trying to see if I still have that paper.
Title: Copland
Post by: protocol7 on May 01, 2011, 02:15:39 PM
Post by: protocol7 on May 01, 2011, 02:15:39 PM
Yup the "DDK 0.4 Read Me First!" file lists the configs D11E4 was tested under:
In my case it was a 7500 with 32MB RAM and a 150MHz 604 upgrade.
Actually that's something else to remember: Copland apparently won't work on a 604e or 604ev, only a vanilla 604.
Code Select
6100/66MHz/24MB 7100/80MHz/40MB 8100/110MHz/24MB
6100/60MHz/48MB 7100/80MHz/24MB 8100/100MHz/24MB
6100/60MHz/16MB 7100/80MHz/16MB 8100/80MHz/24MB
7100/66MHz/24MB
7200/90MHz/16MB 8500/120MHz/40MB 9500/132MHz/32MB
7200/75MHz/24MB 8500/120MHz/24MB 9500/132MHz/24MB
9500/120MHz/24MB
7500/100MHz/32MB 9500/120MHz/16MB
7500/100MHz/24MB
7500/100MHz/16MBIn my case it was a 7500 with 32MB RAM and a 150MHz 604 upgrade.
Actually that's something else to remember: Copland apparently won't work on a 604e or 604ev, only a vanilla 604.
Title: Copland
Post by: mrintel on May 02, 2011, 08:33:59 PM
Post by: mrintel on May 02, 2011, 08:33:59 PM
That's the one! I tested my 8500/132 with 32mb of RAM. It worked fine. Interesting fact about the 603e. Do you know this from experience?
Title: Copland
Post by: protocol7 on May 02, 2011, 08:58:12 PM
Post by: protocol7 on May 02, 2011, 08:58:12 PM
Cool, so you managed to get Copland running now?
I picked up that bit about the 604 from somewhere online. It wasn't through any personal experience as I only have a couple of pre-G3 PowerPC machines.
My 7500 came with a G3 accelerator so when I was looking for a 604 in order to run Copland I made a point of getting a plain 604 rather than a e or ev.
I picked up that bit about the 604 from somewhere online. It wasn't through any personal experience as I only have a couple of pre-G3 PowerPC machines.
My 7500 came with a G3 accelerator so when I was looking for a 604 in order to run Copland I made a point of getting a plain 604 rather than a e or ev.
Title: Copland
Post by: mrintel on May 03, 2011, 06:32:34 PM
Post by: mrintel on May 03, 2011, 06:32:34 PM
Yes, It works, but it's very buggy. I always need a debugger attached.
Do you know of any other combos that would work? Do you have any other classic macs to test?
Do you know of any other combos that would work? Do you have any other classic macs to test?
Title: Copland
Post by: protocol7 on May 03, 2011, 06:43:48 PM
Post by: protocol7 on May 03, 2011, 06:43:48 PM
No, the 7500 is the only Copland-compatible model I have. I think it really is just this buggy. Probably why they scrapped it. I think some of the earlier builds may have been a bit better but who knows if we'll ever see them.
Title: Copland
Post by: mrintel on May 04, 2011, 06:38:26 PM
Post by: mrintel on May 04, 2011, 06:38:26 PM
Well, I have two other earlier builds, but I need a first-gen power mac to use them. The problem is I'm sinking my "fun" money into my home theater system right now, so I have no money to buy one at the moment. Maybe in the near future... :cry:
Title: Copland
Post by: protocol7 on May 04, 2011, 06:53:03 PM
Post by: protocol7 on May 04, 2011, 06:53:03 PM
What's the other earlier build you have? D11E4 and D7E1 are the only ones I've ever managed to find.
Title: Copland
Post by: mrintel on May 05, 2011, 07:26:00 PM
Post by: mrintel on May 05, 2011, 07:26:00 PM
I have one that is labeled as "B5" but I've never tested it before. Not even sure if it's actually Copland or just a mislabled Tempo.
Title: Copland
Post by: protocol7 on May 05, 2011, 07:33:05 PM
Post by: protocol7 on May 05, 2011, 07:33:05 PM
Ah that. Yeah it's a mislabel. Apple didn't use any build names like that for Copland. I know there was a 8.0b5 but it was post-Tempo where it was just plain old Mac OS.
There's a site with some info on a Copland D9 build. That's the only other major version I've ever heard mentioned.
There's a site with some info on a Copland D9 build. That's the only other major version I've ever heard mentioned.
Title: Copland
Post by: mrintel on May 06, 2011, 05:29:27 PM
Post by: mrintel on May 06, 2011, 05:29:27 PM
Ah thanks for that clarification. As for the info web site, is this what you are refering to?
http://www.pagetable.com/?p=211
http://www.pagetable.com/?p=211
Title: Copland
Post by: protocol7 on May 06, 2011, 06:45:10 PM
Post by: protocol7 on May 06, 2011, 06:45:10 PM
Yep that's the one.