Probably a silly question, and I am an idiot for not asking it sooner.
Is it true that in order to use ADB hardware you need to have a "turbo" cube or station?
Chef
Quote from: "nextchef"Probably a silly question, and I am an idiot for not asking it sooner.
Is it true that in order to use ADB hardware you need to have a "turbo" cube or station?
Chef
The way I undersand it is a turbo chipset based machine with a ROM revision of v.74 or better.
That is what I was afraid of.
So I can not even switch to ADB hardware even if I wanted to. Sure hope I can find a non-adb soundbox and mouse, or my black hardware will never live again :(
Chef
yeah, I'm in need of a non-adb mouse myself.
Guess I'll have to keep a candle lit at the Next shrine and hope that I can find one somewhere...
Quote from: "Ashman"yeah, I'm in need of a non-adb mouse myself.
Guess I'll have to keep a candle lit at the Next shrine and hope that I can find one somewhere...
It looks like I will "have" ;) to buy a mono cube system in order to get a mouse. Unless of course the seller wants a fortune for it. Then all I will need is a non-adb "switchbox" so I can use my one mouse on three systems.
Chef
Nobody has the inclination to make a USB to non-adb converter? :-)
Well, I've thought about it and suppose I could as a last resort...
But I'd like to have a true original setup before I start trying to hack things together...
Quote from: "Ashman"Well, I've thought about it and suppose I could as a last resort...
But I'd like to have a true original setup before I start trying to hack things together...
This does bring up the point that repetative use items like keyboards and mice are more prone to failure. At what point will the supply run out, especially the nonADB, and the systems then be non functional because of it.
Thoughts to ponder.
Chef
Quote from: "nextchef"
This does bring up the point that repetative use items like keyboards and mice are more prone to failure. At what point will the supply run out, especially the nonADB, and the systems then be non functional because of it.
From my experience, the non-ADB keyboards are the longest lasting pieces of hardware NeXT made. Over the years of accumulating NeXT systems and parts, I'm now at the point where I have at least twice as many working keyboards as working systems.
Monitors fade, their power supply or control circuitry fails. Mice gunk up beyond cleaning, or more commonly, their switches and sensors die. The rubber ring around the outside of heavily used mice will just disintegrate. System power supplies die. System motherboards go bad, for any number of reasons (CPU dies, SCSI or serial ports fail, just stops working for no apparent reason). The color printers gunk up with ink, or fail mechanically. All laser printers will, at some point, need one or two repairs which require you to track down parts and take the thing apart. The cables are generally pretty robust, but I've had several monitor cables which no longer work, without showing any apparent signs of damage. But the keyboards, at most, need a good cleaning and they work again, unless a key has broken off which is pretty hard to do.
I predict that in the end all that will be left are the cockroaches and a big pile of working NeXT keyboards with no working systems left to use them on.
Well, if anybody has any non-ADB mice with non-working switches I'll be glad to take them off their hands and refurbish them.
That should be an easy weekend project...
After looking at the available information here:
http://www.68k.org/~degs/nextkeyboard.htmlIt looks like he doesn't have complete information about the mouse protocol, so without actually having a mouse to probe, there's no way I can even begin to think about fashioning an interface for a PS2 or ADB mouse, unfortunately.
Anybody know if this guy is still around, or if there is any other information about the mouse protocol available?
If you manage to find an old Logitech PC Bus Mouse (the one using a separate ISA card), this can be adapted to run on non-ADB NeXTstations, see
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.next.marketplace/browse_frm/thread/c50cb57957361b17/d8725c03b9caf76b?lnk=st&q=nextstation+mouse-adapter+&rnum=5&hl=en#d8725c03b9caf76bI think I have such a mouse + adapter somewhere here...
Quote from: "Ashman"After looking at the available information here:
http://www.68k.org/~degs/nextkeyboard.html
It looks like he doesn't have complete information about the mouse protocol, so without actually having a mouse to probe, there's no way I can even begin to think about fashioning an interface for a PS2 or ADB mouse, unfortunately.
Anybody know if this guy is still around, or if there is any other information about the mouse protocol available?
Yeah, he's a friend of mine and still indeed "around". I'll point him at this thread and see if he has anything to add.
Quote from: "cuby"If you manage to find an old Logitech PC Bus Mouse (the one using a separate ISA card), this can be adapted to run on non-ADB NeXTstations, see
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.next.marketplace/browse_frm/thread/c50cb57957361b17/d8725c03b9caf76b?lnk=st&q=nextstation+mouse-adapter+&rnum=5&hl=en#d8725c03b9caf76b
I think I have such a mouse + adapter somewhere here...
I actually have one of those with the isa card. And my wife said I should get rid of all that junk. ;)
It is only two button, so I would have to mod it for pressing both buttons to generate the 3rd button press, as described in the link.
Thanks for the info,
Chef
Quote from: "blackcube"Quote from: "nextchef"Probably a silly question, and I am an idiot for not asking it sooner.
Is it true that in order to use ADB hardware you need to have a "turbo" cube or station?
Chef
The way I undersand it is a turbo chipset based machine with a ROM revision of v.74 or better.
Indeed. So you'll need a 33mhz Turbo Cube, a 33mhz Mono or Color Station, or one of the fairly uncommon 25mhz mono stations with the Turbo chipset. And, of course, the proper ROM version.
Quote from: "pergamon"Yeah, he's a friend of mine and still indeed "around". I'll point him at this thread and see if he has anything to add.
That would be great - especially precise information on the data exchanged between the soundbox/mono monitor and the NeXT would be interesting. This would enable us to build a soundbox clone...
For a USB or PS/2 to non-ADB adapter, I'd give up my non-ADB keyboard and mouse. I don't have the oscilloscope or electronics bench to give it a try.
Quote from: "Ashman"
http://www.68k.org/~degs/nextkeyboard.html
It looks like he doesn't have complete information about the mouse protocol, so without actually having a mouse to probe, there's no way I can
That would be me. Once I realized that the mouse was just a bus mouse, I didn't look at it anymore. You can just use the prefix code and then dump the control information in the suffix. If you pop open the mouse, you'll see that it's about the only piece of hardware NeXT made that was straight forward as it just has POTS decoders.
Quote from: "cuby"Quote from: "pergamon"Yeah, he's a friend of mine and still indeed "around". I'll point him at this thread and see if he has anything to add.
That would be great - especially precise information on the data exchanged between the soundbox/mono monitor and the NeXT would be interesting. This would enable us to build a soundbox clone...
Yes, that was our hope, that we'd be able to create a fake soundbox. As I recall, he figured out the keyboard and mouse no problem, but the sound input/output was a problem. Or maybe it was the station<->soundbox bus that was the problem, I don't recall. Degs?
Well, I just bought a lot of 15 bus mice off of e-bay, so I'll work up a bunch with the right 8-pin connectors and anyone who wants one can buy one from me basically at cost...
I'm guessing that they'll end up being about $5 a piece including the parts and labor but not countng shipping...
Surely a better solution than trying to find one for $45 or whatever they're going for these days if you can find one at all...
They won't be original equipment, and they won't be black, but they'll be 3-button mice that work...
Oh boo. I guess I'll have to wait until I get an oscilloscope for christmas before I get a non-adb USB adapter ;)
Quote from: "Ashman"Well, I just bought a lot of 15 bus mice off of e-bay, so I'll work up a bunch with the right 8-pin connectors and anyone who wants one can buy one from me basically at cost...
I'm guessing that they'll end up being about $5 a piece including the parts and labor but not countng shipping...
Surely a better solution than trying to find one for $45 or whatever they're going for these days if you can find one at all...
They won't be original equipment, and they won't be black, but they'll be 3-button mice that work...
Does NS/OS support three button mice, since the original mouse was only two buttons?
Did you pick up those "head start explorer" 3 button mice that are on ebay? I was wondering about those since my bus mouse is pretty small. You could dissasemble the mice and spray paint them with plastic black paint to make them black.
Put me down for two, and let me know when they are ready.
Chef
Quote from: "pergamon"recall, he figured out the keyboard and mouse no problem, but the sound input/output was a problem. Or maybe it was the station<->soundbox bus that was the problem, I don't recall. Degs?
I got as far as getting the keyboard and mouse, as well as plugging them into my Mac via USB and pulling bytes (I used to make USB breakouts,
http://web.archive.org/web/20040624075646/www.nectix.com/projects/usb/usbn9604.html); however, I could never get into the sound as I just didn't have the equipment to poke at the faster bus at the time. I could piggy-back probes on the serial signals except from the slab to the box, your memory is correct.
You could actually easily emulate (easy being time consuming but straight forward) that custom IC on a cheap FPGA if one really wanted to.
Yeah, I did get the "head start" mice.
There is a hack with a couple of diodes that you can do so that the middle mouse button actually pushes the two other buttons at the same time. So, I'll include that in each of the mice so that a middle-click should be translated into a left & right simultaneous push.
From what I understand, some programs emulated a middle-mouse button even though there wasn't one on the mouse by allowing people to push both buttons at the same time...
I do have some flat black Fusion plastic spraypaint. We'll have to see what kind of surface the mice have, and I'll see if I can get the stuff to stick properly. Some times I've had good luck with it, and other times, not...
Quote from: "Ashman"Yeah, I did get the "head start" mice.
I do have some flat black Fusion plastic spraypaint. We'll have to see what kind of surface the mice have, and I'll see if I can get the stuff to stick properly. Some times I've had good luck with it, and other times, not...
Yea, I guess it might be problematic on a part that gets so much friction and wear as a mouse. I have mostly used it on pc stuff like dvd faceplates and case pieces. I did paint a B&W G3 completely black using it for a friend, but I do not know how it held up since he sold it. I have used it on patio furniture, and it seems to handle the wear pretty well.
Chef
Is this of any help ? I found it in HW_peripherals_FAQ (
http://www.lrz-muenchen.de/~heller/NeXT/HW_peripherals_FAQ.txt)
QuoteSubject: M27. What are the NeXT mouse connections and alternatives?
[From: eric@skatter.usask.ca]
Thanks to Alvin Austin (austin@cs.USask.Ca) I have the information I
need on the NeXT mouse connections.
Pin Function
1 +5v
2 X Encoder Phase A
3 X Encoder Phase B
4 Y Encoder Phase A
5 Y Encoder Phase B
6 Right Button
7 Left Button
8 Ground
[From: Tom.Blenko@yale.edu]
The MS mouse comes with a "Mini HDIN" 9-pin plug. I found no
way to use this, and had to cut the cable and wire to a mini
DIN 8-pin plug. If you haven't built a cable with an 8-pin
mini DIN before, take the advice that has been offered here
before and don't try to solder to the plug -- get a cable with
bare wires or a cable with the plug on one end (lots of Macs
use these) and cut it.
On to the details. Notice that if the pins weren't numbered
differently, the layout would be approximately the same. The
MS mouse doesn't use switch numbered 2. And there is no
reason I know of that another MS mouse need have the same
color coding, so check it against the pins after cutting the
cable.
NeXT mouse wiring:
1 +5V
2 XA
3 XB
4 YA
5 YB
6 right button
7 left button
8 ground
shell chassis ground
pinout:
6 7 8
3 4 5
1 2
Microsoft Bus Mouse wiring:
1 switch (2)
2 left switch (3) Blue
3 ground Black
4 XB White
5 YA Orange
6 YB Yellow
7 right switch (1) Green
8 +5V Red
9 XA Brown
pinout:
1 2 3
4 5 6 7
8 9
Tenzin
Looks like they've shipped out the mice, so with any luck I'll momentarily have some mice to distribute.
As a side note, I'm heading off to Germany for the week of October 8th and the entirity of next week (October 2-6) I'll be hosting customers at work, so my free time might be slim.
Provided I get the parts in time, I'll try to hack out as many mice as I can before things get going at work. If that doesn't happen, then don't expect anything from me until mid-October unfortunately...
Ashman,
Nice avatar, btw ... gotta love BSG.
Chef
Sorry to resurrect such an old thread, but to close on the headstart bus mouse connections:
Headstart Explorer to Next Pinout:
Grey - Right Click - Pin 6
Blue - middle Click - N/C
Green - Left Click - Pin 7
White - Ground — Pin 8
Brown - XA — Pin 2
Red - XB — Pin 3
Orange - YA — Pin 4
Yellow - YB — Pin 5
Connection to next keyboard:
8 7 6
5 4 3
2 1
White Green Grey
Yellow Orange Red
Brown N/C
Further you can open the mouse and connected a diode to from the middle click to both the left and right mouse buttons to have the middle click function as both.
I got to this thread through google when searching for the pinout. Maybe this will help someone close the loop.