Well, I am disappointed....

Well, I am disappointed.  But it was fun while it lasted.

The NeXTStation slab running NextSTEP 3.3 I acquired earlier this week  was working perfectly this morning... and I downloaded the NeXTStep Users Guide and QuickStart Guide off the internet onto my Mac Pro ....... and then when I started up the NeXTStation after lunch it appears that the hard drive in the NeXTStation has stopped working. I get the "Testing System" and then the  "Loading from Disk..." screen shows up but the animated HD icon no longer spins and the HD is silent (no clicking) and the Startup does not load resources and progress to a Desktop.

I surmise that it might be the hard drive and not the power supply. The fan spins but no Desktop. Rats.

I do not have any system software floppies  for this computer or any way to install the software onto another HD.

If the HD is SCSI, I have no end of SCSI drives I could put into it.  My other 68040 computers are a pair of 800 MHz (4 X 200MHz 604e) Daystar Genesis Mac Clones I could raid for a drive.  

This NeXTStation has 20 MB of RAM and a 105MB hard drive and the keyboard, mouse & monitor are excellent.

Suggestions anyone ? ....  about where I could possibly get a hard drive with a copy of NextSTEP 3.3 installed on it ?

Mike in CANADA, near TORONTO.

Hi Mike,

For a replacement drive, search the web for a device called SCSI2SD. It adapts an SD card to 50-pin SCSI so you can use it as a boot drive for hardware requiring a 50-pin SCSI drive. Use on NeXTstations require editing a text file; search these forums for SCSI2SD for additional info.

Boot floppy images are available on the Internet. You need a computer capable of writing the image to a 1.44 MB disk. Images for the NeXTSTEP CDs are also available on the web. Do you have a CD-ROM drive for your NeXT?

Thanks for responding.

Unfortunately, I do not have a CD-ROM drive for my NeXTStation.  The fellow who gave me this NeXTStation just gave me the keyboard, mouse, monitor, slab, and cables. No software, no disks, no peripherals and no books.

The only think I have that will potentially write to 1.44 MB floppies is an old Mac clone and it is getting very temperamental.

And I checked on the internet for those SCSI2SD things that take SD cards and they are about $100 here in Canada .... which is actually more than I want to spend for a interface card for a computer that is more of a novelty.

Hmmmmmm....  Maybe this computer should go to someone who has the ability to make better use of it than me.

Is there a chance that it might be something as simple as a dead battery ??
I recall from my days of 68030 Mac IIci & Mac IIfx boxes that there were circumstances where a dead PRAM battery might cause a computer to not boot....

Mike

I'm not sure how a dead battery affects these computers. If you haven't done so already, I would check to make sure the molex and SCSI cables are firmly seated in the connectors of the hard drive and logic board. Did you change any jumper settings on the hard drive itself?

It could be a dead battery, yes.  I seem to recall that my NeXTs wouldn't boot when their batteries were dead.

I did not change anything at all inside the box, (in terms of touching the jumpers) but I did pop the box open to check that the connections to the drive are secure. They are.

Is it still possible to get a PRAM battery for these things ??

Mike

Quote from: "eagle"It could be a dead battery, yes.  I seem to recall that my NeXTs wouldn't boot when their batteries were dead.

Well....

the battery has been in there since October, 1991.....

Maybe a replacement battery is a good place to start.

Where do I get one ??

Mike

Quote from: "Mike"

Quote from: "eagle"It could be a dead battery, yes.  I seem to recall that my NeXTs wouldn't boot when their batteries were dead.

Well....

the battery has been in there since October, 1991.....

Maybe a replacement battery is a good place to start.

Where do I get one ??

Mike

Battery specialty stores usually have them.  If not that, Amazon probably has them.  Been a while since I ordered one of those batteries.

I just found a couple of 3 Volt CR123A Lithium batteries on eBay. The listing says that they are a replacement for the BR2/3A.  They should be here in a few days.

If this allows the computer to complete the start up sequence again I will be delighted, and no doubt be back here in a few days looking for advice about how to get it up and running again.  If it turns out that the HD is actually dead, that will open a different can of worms.

For FUTURE consideration:  Before the NeXTStation died I found an old 2.17GB external SCSI drive in the basement and connected it to the NeXTStation. It was formatted for Mac.  I initialized the external drive using the NeXTSTEP disk tools, created some New Folders on it, and copied some of the information documents to it to make sure it worked.  If I remove the drive from the case and install this 2 GB drive into the NeXTStation, what do I have to go through to get it up and running again ?

Thanks to all for your support and advice (past, present & future).

Mike

Hi Mike, please see my response in your other thread...

If you give me the 2GB drive I can install a clean NS3.3 on it for you.  If you also give me the internal Quantum drive I can run some diagnostics on it for you to confirm if it is indeed the culprit.

Wunnerful, Wunnerful, Wunnerful.

Thanks for the offer !!

I can box this stuff up and get it off to you as soon as it stops snowing.

Where are you?

Give me a number or a Skype ID and I'll get in touch !!

Mike

QuoteIs there a chance that it might be something as simple as a dead battery ??

No.

QuoteIt could be a dead battery, yes. I seem to recall that my NeXTs wouldn't boot when their batteries were dead.

NeXT's will not turn on if their battery is dead or missing. If it's turning on then the cell is "good enough". Don't mislead him.
edited: too late, you made him buy another battery anyways.

Quotethe battery has been in there since October, 1991.....

QuoteMaybe a replacement battery is a good place to start.
Where do I get one ??

Replacement battery is the Panasonic BR-2/3A. They still make them and Digikey sells them (http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/panasonic-bsg/BR-2-3A/P133-ND/6676).

As for the original drive, if it's the original (3.5" Maxtor?) then the reason it's not spinning up is likely the bearings are sticking. A trick with that problem is a few twists of the wrist while the powered drive is in your hand. You will know when to twist. The drive will have some amazing inertial force trying to spin itself up.

QuoteAs for the original drive, if it's the original (3.5" Maxtor?) then the reason it's not spinning up is likely the bearings are sticking. A trick with that problem is a few twists of the wrist while the powered drive is in your hand. You will know when to twist. The drive will have some amazing inertial force trying to spin itself up.

I bang the drive against a desk, or knock on it with my hand. :)

Okay............

I replaced the battery, which did not help, and I sorted out the RAM.

The on-screen RAM inspection showed that it had a mixture of four 4-Meg 8-chip fast page mode SIMMs and four 9-chip 1-Meg Parity SIMMs so I pulled the four 1-meg Simms and replaced them with four 8-chip 1-meg SIMMs....

No difference.  Cannot find valid boot device.

Removing the little SIMMs is not easy but I made a tool (out of a bicycle spoke) that easily slid into the hole in the SIMM and pushed the little clip back, making SIMM removal very easy.

Now the on-screen RAM inspection  shows a total of 20 MB of all fast page mode RAM.

Okay............

I replaced the battery, which did not help, and I sorted out the RAM.

The on-screen RAM inspection showed that it had a mixture of four 4-Meg 8-chip fast page mode SIMMs and four 9-chip 1-Meg Parity SIMMs so I pulled the four 1-meg Simms and replaced them with four 8-chip 1-meg SIMMs....

No difference.  Cannot find valid boot device.

Removing the little SIMMs is not easy but I made a tool (out of a bicycle spoke) that easily slid into the hole in the SIMM and pushed the little clip back, making SIMM removal very easy.

Now the on-screen RAM inspection  shows a total of 20 MB of all fast page mode RAM.

I was concerned that the power supply might not be sending power to the HD, so I took a little SCSI drive out of an old semi-comatose Mac Clone and used a 4-pin Molex LP4 female to female cable to plug it into the computer where my internal HD plugs in. It spun up with no issues. No readable, of curse, but it definitely got power.

Basically, I replaced my HD with one that spins up when the Power button on the NeXT Keyboard is pressed. I then used the verified good 4-pin Molex LP4 to connect my internal Quantum  drive. Nothing doing. It whispered for a second or two and then zilch.

So now I know that the HD is getting power, anyway...

Default Boot Device Still Not Found, of course.

I will look through my old Mac stuff to see if I can find a short SCSI ribbon. Most of my SCSO ribbons are much longer because my old Mac clones can hold up to 6 hard drives... but I might have one out of an old Iici...

Quote from: "t-rexky"Hi Mike, please see my response in your other thread...

If you give me the 2GB drive I can install a clean NS3.3 on it for you.  If you also give me the internal Quantum drive I can run some diagnostics on it for you to confirm if it is indeed the culprit.

T-Rexky:  Thank you for your offer. I would very much like to take you up on it.

I will PM you now with my contact information. Please let me know if you don't get it.

You can install NeXTSTEP over the network, there are posts on how to do this on this forum. Notably you can use a virtual machine on your mac with the contents of the 680x0/i386 available via an NFS share.

It still amazes me how you people always focus on floppies when the NeXT machines have good enough firmware to be able to netboot. It's not rocket science, you know.

Hah !

Easy for you to say!!  There is a learning curve.

This is my first NeXT computer and I only had it for about a week when the hard drive died. The only software on it when I got it was the operating system.

It may take me quite a while to get up to speed.

So far this forum and the very clever people on it have been my only resource.

Mike

I think we got Mike all fixed-up and ready to start enjoying his acquisition  :wink:

Yes !!

I am definitely up and running. The new drive is full of good stuff for me to explore.

New user name and password installed successfully. I was looking forward to seeing the little animation where it shows drive platters spinning and  the system components loading (like it did before the original drive died) but that does not happen anymore.

Every time I start the NeXTStation up it still fires up with a white screen with text that says that the boot volume is not found... and I have to type in bsd and hit enter to get it to proceed to a login screen, but other than that all is wonderful.

And I downloaded the NeXTSTEP Users Guide .pdf onto my Mac Desktop to use as a reference. There will be something every day.  

Thanks for all the help.

Hi Mike,

Please read this to configure the ROM monitor on your machine to automatically start from the SCSI drive each time you boot it:

http://www.nextcomputers.org/NeXTfiles/Docs/NeXTStep/3.3/nsa/09_StartShut.htmld/index.html

QuoteInspecting or Modifying Configuration Parameters

You can inspect or change several system parameters with the p command. Execute this command at the NeXT> prompt by typing p (in lowercase) and pressing Return. All parameters are stored in nonvolatile RAM and will survive if the power is turned off.

When you type p, the ROM monitor begins an interactive session that prompts you for a value for each parameter. If you respond to a prompt by pressing Return, the parameter remains at the current value.

Note:  If the hardware password is set, you cannot change the values of any parameters without that password. (See "Setting the Hardware Password" later in this chapter.)

Example:

p
boot command: od? sd   (Make the SCSI drive the default boot device.)
DRAM tests: yes? yes
perform power-on system test: yes? yes
sound out tests: no? yes   (Enable sound tests: system beeps after power-on.)
SCSI tests: no? yes
loop until keypress: no?   
verbose test mode: no?   
boot extended diagnostics: no?   
serial port A is alternate console: no?
allow any ROM command even if password protected: no?
allow boot from any device even if password protected: no?
allow optical drive #0 eject even if password protected: no?
enable parity checking if parity memory is present: no?

To accept the default value in the above list you just hit Enter.

Good luck!

Well......

I tried that and really wish I hadn't.

Now I just have a screen that just says "Loading From Network" and an animated spiral ...... and I cannot access anything.

Well... f**k.

Quote from: "Mike"Well......

I tried that and really wish I hadn't.

Now I just have a screen that just says "Loading From Network" and an animated spiral ...... and I cannot access anything.

Well... f**k.

There's a key sequence you can use to get out of that.  I think it's command-command-backtick, but I'm not 100% certain on that.  I am pretty sure it's command-command and the key on the top right corner of the keyboard.

Well, it is supposed to be a learning experience.

I can access the Desktop again but it means starting up with an extra step now:

The computer starts up with the animated message that it is trying to boot from the network ... and typing Command-p gets me a window where I can put in "bsd" at the prompt ..... and then wait while it runs through the entire script to finally ask for my name and password.

Much better than being locked out.

Another victory over the mystery that is NeXTStep.

Mike

Quote from: "Mike"
I can access the Desktop again but it means starting up with an extra step now:

The computer starts up with the animated message that it is trying to boot from the network ... and typing Command-p gets me a window where I can put in "bsd" at the prompt .....

When you're at the prompt where you're typing "bsd", instead type "p" and hit enter.  This is how you set some firmware preferences.  The first question will be something like "Boot Command?", and in reply type "sd".  You should be able to just hit enter to keep all the rest of the preferences.  Power off and when you power back on it should boot from the hard drive instead of network.

(BTW if typing "p" doesn't do what I describe, instead type in "mon" and hit enter first.)

Thanks for the reply...

This is what you mean ??



That suggestion to type in mon and hit enter first is ambiguous. How canOI type something and then pre-hit Enter ??

Well.... I'll be damned !!!  

Look what I got. An infestation of Standard Daemons.



It worked.  

For the first time since I installed the new hard drive I just got a Startup that showed the little animation of the hard disk platter spinning... and the Reading From System progress bar...  and all is "bigly" improved.

You guys............

Mike

Excellent!  I was going to offer more guidance but had zero time till now.  One of my posts above includes a link to the System Administrator's Manual, Boot section, that describes all of that in a great detail.

On a somewhat related note, you will find that the NeXT is somewhat like a modern Mac, but with an order of magnitude more exposure to the UNIX (BSD) underpinnings.  So for a user is it very simple but for a system administrator is it much harder than a modern Mac...

Piotr:

Ha Ha Ha....

At this point, explaining in GREAT DETAIL is exactly what I don't need.

Explaining like I'm a dolt is actually much better.

I have a link to the admin manual in my bookmarks and I have searchable .PDFs of the  NeXTStep Quick Start and NeXTStep Users Guide on my desktop.

It says in the QuickStart that if the user is not going to be using the computer for a few days, shut it off. Is this realistic advice or should I only power it up when I am going to use it and then shut it off when finished.  

From the lack of dust inside the box and the general lack of wear outside on this computer I suspect it has very little use. Do those dreaded capacitors I have been reading about fail from decades of use or from old age ? Just curious. From what I know of the fellow who I got it from, I suspect that he bought this NeXTStation on a whim, tried it our for a few days or hours, and then put it away. I'm pretty sure that he bought it back in the 1990s.

And when I say I have the manuals on my Desktop, I mean my Macintosh Desktop.

At this point, figuring out how to configure or connect this NeXTStation to our home RJ-45 Ethernet network is far beyond my novice capabilities.

This may be a good thing and will prevent me from delving too quickly into the online resources and programs that I wouldn't know how to use anyway !  

Fools rush in, to coin a phrase...

Mike

This link may help you get the NeXT setup on your LAN. I don't think you have to mess with NetInfoManager. Though, you may need to add entries for DNS servers in resolv.conf.

http://www.nextcomputers.org/NeXTfiles/Docs/TjLs_Cable_Modem_Guide.pdf

Wow:

All of the people I have encountered on this Forum have been so wonderfully generous with their time and advice.

Its a wonder I am not in even more over my head and totally lost trying to do stuff that will utterly confuse and baffle me.  I'm fighting it.

I think that for now I'll just take baby steps and get more used to this NeXTStep system -- and figure a few more things out on my own by studying the NeXTStep User Guide and NeXTStep QuickStart Guide before I get myself in trouble.

Mike

Remember Sir, one of the most important things is to set-up a user account that is not root so that you do not accidentally cause some damage...

:wink:

Piotr:
I am being careful. You know it !
I have been warned !  U do not want to risk undoing your fine efforts.

Every time I log in I am logging into an account that has my name, not root, as the Name, and a password of my choosing as the Password.

You can bet that I will definitely not be using "root" as the login name ... not until I am a lot more confident than I am now and know what I am doing.

At this point I am being careful to not do anything except read the manuals on my Mac and use the NeXTStation to create and save changes a few text documents. And play pool.

I do have a couple of questions: Is there any benefit to upgrading the RAM from the 20 MB presently installed to 32 MB, considering the modest demands I will be making on it, and why are the capacitors still good in my NeXTStation after 26 years ??  

Mike