Did NeXT send out updates on burned cd-r's???

Check out this auction, and tell me if you think it is legit.  Did NeXT send out updates on burned cd-r's?

http://cgi.ebay.com/NeXT-NEXTSTEP-3-3-CD-for-Intel-NeXT_W0QQitemZ260039642092QQihZ016QQcategoryZ4619QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Chef

I just do not know...mayhaps RacerX knows?

Quote from: "nextchef"Check out this auction, and tell me if you think it is legit.  Did NeXT send out updates on burned cd-r's?

http://cgi.ebay.com/NeXT-NEXTSTEP-3-3-CD-for-Intel-NeXT_W0QQitemZ260039642092QQihZ016QQcategoryZ4619QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Chef

The Y2K patch CD's I have are genuine silver NeXT © Apple Computer Inc.  That eBay auction I'd say is worthless crap.

Quote from: "nextchef"Check out this auction, and tell me if you think it is legit.  Did NeXT send out updates on burned cd-r's?

Not that I know of... as with Apple, with NeXT your media was sort of your receipt for the software (as much as a container of it).

When you consider that NeXT/Apple was sending out printed CDs of either NEXTSTEP 3.3 or OPENSTEP 4.2 to NeXT hardware owners for the cost of shipping, the idea that they would send out a CDR is just hard to believe. I mean even my patch CD (which, isn't as big a deal as the OS install CD) was nicely printed...



And it cost them (at most) a couple dollars a CD back in the mid 90's to have them made... why take the trouble to make and send a CDR (and add printing on it)? Plus NeXT/Apple doesn't do anything without documentation... even my patch CD came with a nice letter from Apple and a couple pages on how to install the updates as I recall.

Quote from: "RacerX"

Quote from: "nextchef"Check out this auction, and tell me if you think it is legit.  Did NeXT send out updates on burned cd-r's?

Not that I know of... as with Apple, with NeXT your media was sort of your receipt for the software (as much as a container of it).

When you consider that NeXT/Apple was sending out printed CDs of either NEXTSTEP 3.3 or OPENSTEP 4.2 to NeXT hardware owners for the cost of shipping, the idea that they would send out a CDR is just hard to believe. I mean even my patch CD (which, isn't as big a deal as the OS install CD) was nicely printed...

And it cost them (at most) a couple dollars a CD back in the mid 90's to have them made... why take the trouble to make and send a CDR (and add printing on it)? Plus NeXT/Apple doesn't do anything without documentation... even my patch CD came with a nice letter from Apple and a couple pages on how to install the updates as I recall.

Yup, that what I was trying to say, you just did it better ;-). My patch CD is exactly like this one.

Quote from: "brams"

Quote from: "RacerX"

Quote from: "nextchef"Check out this auction, and tell me if you think it is legit.  Did NeXT send out updates on burned cd-r's?

Not that I know of... as with Apple, with NeXT your media was sort of your receipt for the software (as much as a container of it).

When you consider that NeXT/Apple was sending out printed CDs of either NEXTSTEP 3.3 or OPENSTEP 4.2 to NeXT hardware owners for the cost of shipping, the idea that they would send out a CDR is just hard to believe. I mean even my patch CD (which, isn't as big a deal as the OS install CD) was nicely printed...

And it cost them (at most) a couple dollars a CD back in the mid 90's to have them made... why take the trouble to make and send a CDR (and add printing on it)? Plus NeXT/Apple doesn't do anything without documentation... even my patch CD came with a nice letter from Apple and a couple pages on how to install the updates as I recall.

Yup, that what I was trying to say, you just did it better ;-). My patch CD is exactly like this one.

All of mine are nicely printed as well.  But perhaps this one is one of the ones that blackhole is selling that are not actual Apple produced CD's but are authorized burned copies?  Has anyone seen one of the CD sets Rob is selling with Apple's permission?

Quote from: "brams"Yup, that what I was trying to say, you just did it better ;-).

I wasn't trying to be the definitive word on the subject... just adding to what you had said.  :oops:

Quote from: All of mine are nicely printed as well. But perhaps this one is one of the ones that blackhole is selling that are not actual Apple produced CD's but are authorized burned copies? Has anyone seen one of the CD sets Rob is selling with Apple's permission?

I haven't seen them, but if it was one of those, then it would be a legitimate copy of NEXTSTEP.

It would have helped if the seller had said it was a BlackHole, Inc. CDR rather than NeXT... that is, it would help us in authenticating, but maybe not helped in selling the CD.

:roll:

Which brings up another point... maybe we should find out if Rob is doing a special labeling of the media he is selling so we know what a legitimate version looks like.

Here's a scan of an OPENSTEP CD I purchased from Black Hole Inc a few months ago.  It's labeled as a "printable" CD and has a blurry image of the original.  The developer CD had a similar image of the original too.  Both were Memorex brand CDR's.

Quote from: "RacerX"I wasn't trying to be the definitive word on the subject... just adding to what you had said.  :oops:

No problem at all, you did make a much better job of explaining than I did :-)

As I understand it, it's perfectly legal for me to give (FOC or small charge for  duplication) a CD-R of a NeXT operating system to an owner of a NeXT computer (black hardware) provided I get proof that the recipient has a NeXT computer with a valid serial number.  Is that the truth? 'cos it does sound a bit dodgy to me.  I also understand this rule does not apply to any other platform other then NeXT 68k.  When and how did this rule come about?.

Quote from: "brams"As I understand it, it's perfectly legal for me to give (FOC or small charge for  duplication) a CD-R of a NeXT operating system to an owner of a NeXT computer (black hardware) provided I get proof that the recipient has a NeXT computer with a valid serial number.  Is that the truth? 'cos it does sound a bit dodgy to me.  I also understand this rule does not apple to any other platform other then NeXT 68k.  When and how did this rule come about?.

In every world but microsofts, I would say that this is true.  If the system originally came with copies of the OS on cd, then you should be able to "procure" a replacement copy.  In my experience, this is usually done through the manufacturer, and you will pay a nominal price for the media and shipping, once you provide proof of ownership.  You would not be in your rights to get a version higher than the one that came with your system, unless you paid accordingly.

I thought next gave out copies of NS3.3 to anyone owning 68k hardware at one time?

Chef

Quote from: "nextchef"
I thought next gave out copies of NS3.3 to anyone owning 68k hardware at one time?

Chef

Thay did exactly that during the Y2K run up.  All you had to do was call Apple and give them the serial number of your black cpu and they would mail you the proper media.  They go messed up on mine and sent me two sets of media.

Quote from: "brams"As I understand it, it's perfectly legal for me to give (FOC or small charge for  duplication) a CD-R of a NeXT operating system to an owner of a NeXT computer (black hardware) provided I get proof that the recipient has a NeXT computer with a valid serial number.  Is that the truth? 'cos it does sound a bit dodgy to me.  I also understand this rule does not apply to any other platform other then NeXT 68k.  When and how did this rule come about?.

For both Apple (including clones) and NeXT hardware, my general policy with clients is that I'll supply an OS for hardware that doesn't have one.

In the case of Apple hardware, I'll supply (for free) the very next version of the OS after the one that originally shipped with that hardware. I own generic versions of all the Apple operating systems, but in many cases the operating system that shipped with a given system was hardware specific and the generic version will be missing important parts.

For example, a PowerBook 3400c that came with 7.6 won't except the generic 7.6 installation. So I would put 8.1 (8.0 plus the free 8.1 update) on that system. If they wanted 8.5-8.6, they would need to supply their own copy.

With NeXT hardware, because of the Y2K issues, Apple needed to bring everyone up to at least NEXTSTEP 3.3 so they could apply the patch.

So in the case of NeXT hardware without an OS I'll supply NEXTSTEP 3.3 (user, not developer) with all the patches. A NeXT system with NEXTSTEP 2.x to 3.2, I'll also supply NEXTSTEP 3.3, and if they have the earlier versions of Developer Tools, I'll upgrade and patch them too. In the case of OPENSTEP, if you have NeXT hardware and OPENSTEP 4.0 or 4.1, I'll supply 4.2 with the needed patches.

I only do this with clients (and with hardware I can see). It basically follows the your hardware is your license key philosophy.

As for supplying actual media... I'm quite a bit more hesitant to take that step generally (partially because I really don't have the means to make copies). It is one thing to get a system up, running and useful... but beyond that, there are just too many variables to be handing out media that freely (specially since the Intel install is on the same media as the NeXT).

:roll:

As I understand it, BlackHole is supposed to be supplying the replacement media for NeXT hardware at a reasonable cost (which would be something much less than the standard versions of NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP they sell). I think this was part of their agreement with Apple to sell copies.

Quote from: "Nitro"Here's a scan of an OPENSTEP CD I purchased from Black Hole Inc a few months ago.

Well, I guess we can rule out that the ebay one is one of them.

Quote from: "blackcube"

Quote from: "nextchef"
I thought next gave out copies of NS3.3 to anyone owning 68k hardware at one time?

Chef

Thay did exactly that during the Y2K run up.  All you had to do was call Apple and give them the serial number of your black cpu and they would mail you the proper media.  They go messed up on mine and sent me two sets of media.

If that is the case, then why does Rob over at blackhole charge $200 for something that apple would give you for free.  I can understand cost for the cd's and shipping, but not $200 for a couple of burned cd-r's.  You have to wonder how many of those original cd's are still around, sitting in a warehouse at apple, or in some ex-NeXT/Apple employees garage.

Chef

Quote from: "nextchef"

Quote from: "blackcube"

Quote from: "nextchef"
I thought next gave out copies of NS3.3 to anyone owning 68k hardware at one time?

Chef

Thay did exactly that during the Y2K run up.  All you had to do was call Apple and give them the serial number of your black cpu and they would mail you the proper media.  They go messed up on mine and sent me two sets of media.

If that is the case, then why does Rob over at blackhole charge $200 for something that apple would give you for free.

For free is only for black hardware. If you have Intel/HP/Sparc you have to purchase the full one set. AFAIK ROb had also a Set for ~$49 for black NeXTies

Quote from: "Andreas"

Quote from: "nextchef"

Quote from: "blackcube"

Quote from: "nextchef"
I thought next gave out copies of NS3.3 to anyone owning 68k hardware at one time?

Chef

Thay did exactly that during the Y2K run up.  All you had to do was call Apple and give them the serial number of your black cpu and they would mail you the proper media.  They go messed up on mine and sent me two sets of media.

If that is the case, then why does Rob over at blackhole charge $200 for something that apple would give you for free.

For free is only for black hardware. If you have Intel/HP/Sparc you have to purchase the full one set. AFAIK ROb had also a Set for ~$49 for black NeXTies

$49 is a much better price, but it still seems to be a bit much.  Mabey if they were pressed cd's with a silkscreened label, but not for a burned inkjet printed cd-r.

But that is just me ;)

Chef

Quote from: "nextchef"If that is the case, then why does Rob over at blackhole charge $200 for something that apple would give you for free.  I can understand cost for the cd's and shipping, but not $200 for a couple of burned cd-r's.  You have to wonder how many of those original cd's are still around, sitting in a warehouse at apple, or in some ex-NeXT/Apple employees garage.

Actually, Apple ran out of them... that is why Rob made an agreement with Apple for making copies to continue selling them.

As has been pointed out, there are different prices for NeXT hardware replacement media and media for other platforms. Most of the money that is charged for NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP actually does go back to Apple. It covers Apple's license agreements with the owner of technology within NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP that Apple doesn't own.

Quote from: "RacerX"

Quote from: "nextchef"If that is the case, then why does Rob over at blackhole charge $200 for something that apple would give you for free.  I can understand cost for the cd's and shipping, but not $200 for a couple of burned cd-r's.  You have to wonder how many of those original cd's are still around, sitting in a warehouse at apple, or in some ex-NeXT/Apple employees garage.

Actually, Apple ran out of them... that is why Rob made an agreement with Apple for making copies to continue selling them.

As has been pointed out, there are different prices for NeXT hardware replacement media and media for other platforms. Most of the money that is charged for NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP actually does go back to Apple. It covers Apple's license agreements with the owner of technology within NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP that Apple doesn't own.

So Rob has to pay a "royalty" fee back to apple for each cd that he sells?  Well that explains it, and then $50 is not that much.

All is right with the world again ....

Chef

Just to get it right and maybe understand a bit of what You all is writing:

as an owner of original NeXT hardware I'm somewhat endorsed with Apple as long as the as the license agreements (?¿?) do entitle me as a person who as long as I'm in posession of original NeXT hardware has the right to claim for original installation media?

J

Quote from: "Jenne"Just to get it right and maybe understand a bit of what You all is writing:

as an owner of original NeXT hardware I'm somewhat endorsed with Apple as long as the as the license agreements (?¿?) do entitle me as a person who as long as I'm in posession of original NeXT hardware has the right to claim for original installation media?

J

The claim has a time-out sometimes in year 2000. For supporting the Year 2000 compatibility and while all Black NeXt was shipped with an OS Apple have sended to everyone, who have wanted Y2k kompat. new media for the whole 3.3 or 4.2 set.
Since a few supplier for OS-code have still rights on the OS like the Postscript Display Code Apple can't give the OS for free.

I contacted Apple on 3 separate occasions since 2004 to try and get the nexstep cds for my nextstation. I think they stopped giving out the cds in 2003 or something like that.

Apple was no help to me and so I'm running 3.1 without the dev tools.

weak.

I'll get the dev tools soon hopefully.  ;(

Quote from: "mevdev"
I'll get the dev tools soon hopefully.  ;(

BTW, if you can get a much cheaper V3.2 Box, the dev-tools CD is the same than in 3.3 (or at least after patching). So you can mix an Installation with 3.3 user and 3.2 dev, after patching you have the same result as with the 3.3 dev CD.

Quote from: "mevdev"I contacted Apple on 3 separate occasions since 2004 to try and get the nexstep cds for my nextstation. I think they stopped giving out the cds in 2003 or something like that...

Since Apple Enterprise (the division of Apple that handled NeXT products) shut down your not going to find too many people at Apple that know much about NeXT products... at all. And that was back in 2001.




:roll:

Plus, I believe the BlackHole/Apple agreement predates 2004.

As I recall Rob started using CDR media for NeXT hardware fulfillment policy pretty early on and made an agreement with Apple to sell NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP as CDRs when original printed media started running short.


Basically, other than old/used media, Rob is the only authorized person to sell NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP. And (as we pretty much all know) support of these products is now a community affair.

Not to beat a dead horse [but hey I just got here]. I read the agreement "letter" at Rob's site and also the recent post by Kenjay and it really seems to me that at this point Apple could care less about NextStep on Black Hardware. Much in the same way they do not care that A/UX has been posted on FTP sites for years and years now.

I do not get the impression that any money goes from Rob back to apple for the sale of NeXTStep CDs [and I sort of doubt that he sends them money for Openstep either but I could be wrong. The problem with reading anything at Blackhole is that it feels like someone slipped some Acid into my Coffee  :shock: perhaps it is just me.] I base this off the tongue and cheek wording of the Ebay auction about the funds for Steve Jobs.

Not that I'm suggestions anyone post the 3.3 disk images, I'm just saying I think Apple is over caring about it.

-MIke

Quote from: "mgtremaine"I do not get the impression that any money goes from Rob back to apple for the sale of NeXTStep CDs [and I sort of doubt that he sends them money for Openstep either but I could be wrong. The problem with reading anything at Blackhole is that it feels like someone slipped some Acid into my Coffee  :shock: perhaps it is just me.] I base this off the tongue and cheek wording of the Ebay auction about the funds for Steve Jobs.

So you are (without evidence) pushing that Rob doesn't have an agreement with Apple?

Part of the reason Apple doesn't put too much into enforcing A/UX is that (1) it is quite limited in what it can do these days and (2) only runs on hardware that Apple stopped making back in 1995. There are very few 68030 and 68040 systems and those systems don't pose any competition to any of Apple's current offerings.

NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP media for NeXT hardware also includes the installation for Intel hardware. And the systems that OPENSTEP can still be run on today are pretty advanced, which keeps them as good alternatives for Apple's hardware/software offerings.

The difference between A/UX and NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP/Enterprise Objects/WebObjects is that A/UX never had the features and doesn't still have a viable platform, where as the NeXT products never lost their features and still have a very viable hardware platform.

QuoteNot that I'm suggestions anyone post the 3.3 disk images, I'm just saying I think Apple is over caring about it.
 
[Since I just got a NeXTStation Color Turbo I am very interested in getting 3.3, if anyone has any suggestions feel free to PM me.]

It sure sounds like this post was designed to convince us that we shouldn't feel guilty about giving away copies of Apple software... to you.

 :roll:

Frankly, attacking Rob's credibility and comparing NS/OS to A/UX wouldn't have been high on my list of recommendations for accomplishing your goals here.

Quote from: "RacerX"
It sure sounds like this post was designed to convince us that we shouldn't feel guilty about giving away copies of Apple software... to you.

 :roll:

Frankly, attacking Rob's credibility and comparing NS/OS to A/UX wouldn't have been high on my list of recommendations for accomplishing your goals here.

My appoligies if that is how it came out I honestly was just try to read all the details I could and then made my comments. It is very confusing when I read the posts regarding Apple's response to KenJay and the various sections from Rob's site/ebay posting. I'm sure Rob is nice fun lovely guy, and I do fully beleive that he has some "official" agreement with Apple, I just said I doubt money changes hands, why would Apple bother? [The accountanting paper work alone for the money each year would not be worth it.]

Rather then trying to convince anyone to give me anything I think what I'm really after is a way for ANYONE with Black Hardware to get NeXTStep 3.3 for free but with Apple's approval. [Downloaded ISO with registration and serial numbers or something like that.]  I like to think I'm more altruistic then self-serving but in the end who knows.

I'll stop speculating since that seems to be the wisest move.

-Mike