What is Apple's OFFICIAL policy on NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP?

I apologize for this rather mundane question - but it is important that I find out the answer because it relates to making copies of the original CD's for NeXTSTEP, OPENSTEP and the Developer software - and including them with the NeXT Cubes and NeXTstations that I sell on eBay from time to time.

I am [semi] aware of eBay's policy regarding including operating system on 'back-up' copies with computers sold on eBay. I have to believe that this is to protect current software companies - not 'extinct' companies - no matter how sophisticated they were during their term of activity. I have very recently been 'turned in' [by who? - I don't know], and my auction was removed one day before completion. I am NOT happy about that!

But, the problem really comes down to this ...

As we know - Apple doesn't distribute these CD's anymore. There was a time [1999/2001], where they gave away these to ANYONE with an original NeXT Computer. I am aware [from looking at their site] that Black Hole Inc. has some rather vague connection with 'someone at Apple legal which supposedly allows them to copy and distribute this software. But personally, from the way that I interept the 'correspondence' between Black Hole and Apple ... I don't believe that Apple would give the right to do this only to BlackHole. To me, it seems that this correspondence posted on Black Hole's site gives them no more than a 'nod and a wink' to copy the original disks - and that decade

• old software by NeXT is really not a high priority at Apple Legal right now.
  
  I didn't start this thread to create a discussion - of opinions regarding the legality of making copies of 12 to 15 year old operating system software for a hardware platform that has been shut down for 14 years.
  
  I am only asking - because I want to know if anyone really knows what Apple's position is on this, and if there is any on-line documentation anywhere to confirm it.
  
  I have attempted to contact Apple 'legal' and ask them this question, but I have been unsuccessful. If I do actually hear from them, I will post the information on this site.
  
  Thank you for reading!

I'd like to know the answer to who's in charge of the software now because I purchased an academic bundle from ebay last year and the NS3.3 install disk has a scratch on the disk. It's on the painted side and the disk won't load NS. Who do I return this medium to for a replacement? Will Blackhole replace it? [By the way, if he's now in charge, I'll send Rob my unreadable NS3.3 developer disk I paid him good money for so he can replace that too.]

AFAIK if you own original black hardware that would require a NS or OS operating system then you're licensed to have a copy of it and make backups of it.

You're allowed to make a backup of your original(of yours for you ). Every owner of a NeXT computer is licensed to run a copy of NS. When Apple offered the Y2K bundles to NeXT users, if you didn't have a registration number(found on the registration card), you received NS. If you had a valid OS registration number for OS, you got the OS Y2K bundle. Also, owning a license and owning media is not the same thing.

Now, as for Rob, he is allowed to sell CD-R copies of NS and OS(or was in the past - not sure what the deal might be now). And as for replacing your busted media, if you didn't buy it from Rob, then I don't know why you think he would/should replace it(but heck, give it a shot). I have never known Rob/Blackhole to ever offer support outside of whatever warranty he might give you if you buy direct from him. If you bought a busted copy on ebay, ebay has been offering buyer protection for a few years now(since 2004?) so you should have opened up a case and got your money back.

Ive bought from Rob a few times in the past 7 years or so, and never had a problem(and he can talk like there is no tomorrow..lol). So, I don't see why Rob wouldn't have replaced any busted media you had bought from him. But considering some time has passed, I wouldn't expect him to replace it(assuming of course he had not been ducking your attempts to contact him).

Well ... as I can see it ... this topic has already gone off topic - at least for what I intended it to be.

I am not looking for everybody's 'personal intereptations' are of the NeXT license agreement regarding back up [copied] CD-ROMS for "personal use".
I am ONLY interested in knowing what Apple Inc.'s CURRENT policy is regarding this matter - pertinent to my original post on this SPECIFIC thread.

I'm sorry - but I was afraid of this happening here.
[that being of my particular topic turning into a complete 're-hash' of the many threads that have already been discussed on this subject over the past 10 years].

kenjay-

Sorry. I totally haven't followed the threads in the past. Since 'Apple inc.' is the one with the answer to your question, and they don't appear to want to answer it (in the amount of time and effort you are happy with), I guess you were hoping someone here is an Apple insider or has seen some document with the answer.

I can't help thinking about the bizzare relationship between blackhole and Apple (if there is one). Do you think Rob Blessin 'turned you in'? Why hasn't someone turned Rob Blessin in?

Multi-

Did you turn kenjay in? Yes, I have the registration card for the academic bundle. No, Rob did not give me a warranty on the pirated software CD he sold me. I don't really have any issues with NS software I care to spend any time or effort on (other than the amount it takes to post to nextcomputer.org). I'm quite happy making clones of my systems with backup | restore. I just brought up the issues for illustration. Now I realize from kenjay's comments that doing so is pretty worthless.

kenjay,

How did you try to contact apple about this?  Phone/email will probably not get you very far with them, like most large corporations.  Your best bet is to send a certified letter that clearly spells out the details involved and what information you are looking for.  The fact that you bothered to send an actual letter, and paid for certified so you know it got there, may make your request be taken a little more seriously than just casual correspondence.

Good luck with it, as it is a question a lot of people would like answered.

Chef

Ernest Prabhakar is your man:

Ernest N. Prabhakar, Ph.D. (408) 974-3075 <ernest at apple.com>
Product Manager, Open Source & Open Standards; Mac OS X Product Marketing
Apple Computer; 303-4SW 3 Infinite Loop; Cupertino, CA 95014

He was handling the Enterprise Fulfillment during the Y2K days, and apparently heads up the Darwin/OpenSource initiative.

I have emailed him in the past, and he has been very direct and forth-coming with information.

Cool! An Apple insider! I look forward to hearing the outcome kenjay!

Quote from: "itomato"Ernest Prabhakar is your man:I have emailed him in the past, and he has been very direct and forth-coming with information.

Thank you. After a couple days of sending unanswered emails to various addresses at Apple that had reference to legal or copyright isssues - I did contact Mr. Prabhakar - who responded to me immediately :o

I will quote exactly what he wrote to me, but you [ALL] should [like I have] take this information with some 'caution' - because it was to me ... kind of vague. Subsequenly, I wrote back to him, thanking him for his reply, but also asking him to be a little more specific - as regarding 'sharing' copies [burned CD's] of NeXTSTEP & OPENSTEP software [including the Developer tools] for use on original NeXT hardware.

To this - he has not replied further.

So ... in conclusion [of this particular post] - if THIS is Apple's "OFFICIAL" policy - then MY OPINION [of what it says to me], is that the policy is similar to "Don't ask - Don't tell".

---------------------------------------------------------------

"Hi Ken,

You are welcome to upgrade/restore existing NeXT hardware to a Y2K-compliant version of the system software.

Best,
-- Ernie P."

---------------------------------------------------------------

Quote from: "idylukewild"kenjay-Do you think Rob Blessin 'turned you in'? Why hasn't someone turned Rob Blessin in?

No - I would not believe that Rob would do that! Absolutely not!
What Rob is doing - at least according to the information posted on his website - is [apparently] OK.

The question that I would have is - "does he have EXCLUSIVE rights to do this"?

The problem that I had - was with eBay's 'policy' regarding burned copies of the operating system. On the evening before the auction was taken down, an eBay member wrote me a question: "Are the CD's of the operating system originals or copies?" - and I wrote back "fully tested copies" of my originals. Apparently, this 'member' felt that he/she should alert eBay of this grievous violation :?

Quote from: "kenjay"
The problem that I had - was with eBay's 'policy' regarding burned copies of the operating system. On the evening before the auction was taken down, an eBay member wrote me a question: "Are the CD's of the operating system originals or copies?" - and I wrote back "fully tested copies" of my originals. Apparently, this 'member' felt that he/she should alert eBay of this grievous violation :?

Thats pretty low, if you ask me.  I guess they thought the price was too high, and decided if they could not have it then no one else could.

I guess it requires a bit of "wink, wink, nudge, nudge .." wording, like included with the auction will be a number of CD-R disks in used/as-is condition.  At least that is the way I ended up with my first complete set of IRIX media with my O2.  Even if you get definitive word from Apple concerning this, I am afraid that ebay still may not care and cancel a similar auction again in the future.

Chef

kenjay-

Good! It sounds like you've been cleared to offer "Apple authorized restoration/upgrade OS software" for NeXT hardware you sell.

I'd like to make a backup copy of my NS3.3 install cd. Sorry if this has been explained before in the forums - perhaps you could point me in the right direction or explain how it is done. Thanks!

[P.S.: I was able to mount the second partition of a 2*2GB drive with the method you posted a while ago. I'll update that thread with some more hints for making 2*2GB drives later. Thanks for your help!]

Quote from: "idylukewild"I'd like to make a backup copy of my NS3.3 install cd. Sorry if this has been explained before in the forums - perhaps you could point me in the right direction or explain how it is done. Thanks!

This process was difficult for me at first [a few years ago]. Recently, I have used Mac OS X [10.4.3 and up] Disk Utility - Chose New disk image - and then I burned it as CD/Master [no encryption] at minimum speed. All of this was done w/ a G5 Tower without a problem. But now, I have a new iMac C2D - and when I insert a NeXTSTEP CD [for example] it says that "the disk is not readable by this computer", but it still appears in Disk Utility.

I haven't tried to make a NEW disk image [of a NeXT CD] with this new iMac, so I really don't know if everything will work out properly. But it doesn't really matter, because I have all of the disk images already on the iMac's HD [transferred over from the G5], and the images burn properly - even at maximum speed.

I guess ... it's kind of a matter of trial and error. But if you don't have OS X - I really don't know what to tell you!:roll:

Thanks kenjay! My workhorse computer is an eMac, and I've just ordered an upgrade to 10.4.4. I'll give it a try!

Quote from: "idylukewild"Thanks kenjay! My workhorse computer is an eMac, and I've just ordered an upgrade to 10.4.4. I'll give it a try!

Oh - I see.

But if it's not too late - see if you can change your order!
Don't stop at 10.4.4 - 'try' and go for 10.4.8 ...

You'll make my day! :lol:

His wording:

"Hi Ken,

You are welcome to upgrade/restore existing NeXT hardware to a Y2K-compliant version of the system software.

Best,
-- Ernie P."

Just says you can upgrade the system on the hw. It says nothing about backup copies. You should be specific and have him answer specifically about offering cd-r copies. As that is very different from upgrading installed sw to be y2k compliant.

You should be able to create the images on any version of osx. Using disk utility or dd. Same with pretty much any unix(using dd). I personally use dd, but I know creating a disc image works on any osx version(and this is  being done on a pismo or g4 graphites, but it will work on any).  Just ignore that 'unreadable' warning, no support for nextstep-cd ufs type(and if you run a unix with that support, you can also mount via -t ufs -o ufstype=nextstep-cd). Most OS' dont have support for ufstype nextstep-cd, but recent linux distros do have the support compiled in so you can mount and poke around the cd(or image via a loopback mount).

Quote from: "kenjay"

This process was difficult for me at first [a few years ago]. Recently, I have used Mac OS X [10.4.3 and up] Disk Utility - Chose New disk image - and then I burned it as CD/Master [no encryption] at minimum speed. All of this was done w/ a G5 Tower without a problem. But now, I have a new iMac C2D - and when I insert a NeXTSTEP CD [for example] it says that "the disk is not readable by this computer", but it still appears in Disk Utility.

I haven't tried to make a NEW disk image [of a NeXT CD] with this new iMac, so I really don't know if everything will work out properly. But it doesn't really matter, because I have all of the disk images already on the iMac's HD [transferred over from the G5], and the images burn properly - even at maximum speed.

I guess ... it's kind of a matter of trial and error. But if you don't have OS X - I really don't know what to tell you!:roll:

Kenjay,

What ever came of your discussions with Apple concerning distribution of the CD's?  I see from the latest ebay auction that you mention some sort of letter allowing you to provide copies for restore purposes with the systems you sell.  Please advise further on this.

Thanks,

Chef

i think that the nexstep and openstep's cd should be out there as freeware. i mean consider how old the os is now

More like abandonware.

I wish Apple would give someone a clear answer on that. I don't see why they would care if someone made duplicates of an OS they no longer support.

Quote from: "helf"More like abandonware.

I wish Apple would give someone a clear answer on that. I don't see why they would care if someone made duplicates of an OS they no longer support.

yeah no kidding

Quote from: "MacG4"

Quote from: "helf"More like abandonware.

I wish Apple would give someone a clear answer on that. I don't see why they would care if someone made duplicates of an OS they no longer support.

yeah no kidding

That is what I am trying to figure out.  As discussed in this thread, Kenjay was in contact with someone at Apple about this very issue.  The fact that he now lists in the ebay auctions that he has some sort of letter from Apple, might clarify this further.

Hopefully he will respond the next time he is around.

Chef

There are probably some obscure (for us) legal reasons Apple can't do it. Their investors/partners too, would want to get their "share" from the "company portofolio"...

Anyways, according to what Kenjay wrote and his talks with the Apple guy, you're free to do it (as long as you own the hardware too?)

Quote from: "nextchef"Kenjay,

What ever came of your discussions with Apple concerning distribution of the CD's?  I see from the latest ebay auction that you mention some sort of letter allowing you to provide copies for restore purposes with the systems you sell.  Please advise further on this.

Thanks,

Chef

I asked for further [specific] clarification and I never heard anything back. All I have from him is what I have written previously in this thread. I am 'officially' not concerned anymore about this issue. Based upon whatever correspondence that I actually have - I will assume that I can provide copys of the Y2K compliant versions of NeXT system and Developer software with NeXT hardware. At this time - I do not have any plans to distribute  copied CD's unless it is included with a NeXT computer.

Quote from: "kenjay"

Quote from: "nextchef"Kenjay,

What ever came of your discussions with Apple concerning distribution of the CD's?  I see from the latest ebay auction that you mention some sort of letter allowing you to provide copies for restore purposes with the systems you sell.  Please advise further on this.

Thanks,

Chef

I asked for further [specific] clarification and I never heard anything back. All I have from him is what I have written previously in this thread. I am 'officially' not concerned anymore about this issue. Based upon whatever correspondence that I actually have - I will assume that I can provide copys of the Y2K compliant versions of NeXT system and Developer software with NeXT hardware. At this time - I do not have any plans to distribute  copied CD's unless it is included with a NeXT computer.

Thanks for the reply.  I was sure hoping that some further "guidance" had been provided on this issue.  I guess the "silence" of Apple on this issue will have to be taken as some kind of tacit approval, at least when it comes to NeXT hardware.  I certainly feel that this allows copies of NS/OS to be distributed to anyone who has actual black NeXT hardware.

Distribution of the Intel versions of NS/OS are still problematical, as your discussion only concerned NS/OS/y2k being distributed with black NeXT hardware.  The fact that both versions are on the same cd adds a wrinkle to this that might have to be dealt with in the future.

Chef

"Nudge, nudge, wink, wink" is really all that you can reasonably expect to get out of Apple concerning NS/OS. They will never officially allow anyone to truly openly advertise copies of these, or release them into the public domain, because of the huge legal gyrations this would entail. You see, NeXT included a lot of software in NS/OS that was licensed from other companies (Display PostScript from Adobe, for instance) and it would require a LOT of time and effort (=$$$$) to get permission to release it all, and all it would take to derail the whole project would be for one of those companies to refuse.

So just do it on the side by contacting some of the folks here on nextcomputers.org who seem to be most knowledgeable/amenable to it (I myself have never tried, having happened into a trove of NS CD's years ago).

Quote from: "crimsonRE"So just do it on the side by contacting some of the folks here on nextcomputers.org who seem to be most knowledgeable/amenable to it (I myself have never tried, having happened into a trove of NS CD's years ago).

So where does this leave Rob at blackhole?  He is pretty adiment that He has the right to distribute copies of NS/os.  I am not trying to pick on Rob, but he is actively advertising it, and has not been shut down by Apple, so they must not "officially" care much about it.

Chef

Quote from: "nextchef"

Quote from: "crimsonRE"So just do it on the side by contacting some of the folks here on nextcomputers.org who seem to be most knowledgeable/amenable to it (I myself have never tried, having happened into a trove of NS CD's years ago).

So where does this leave Rob at blackhole?  He is pretty adiment that He has the right to distribute copies of NS/os.  I am not trying to pick on Rob, but he is actively advertising it, and has not been shut down by Apple, so they must not "officially" care much about it.

Chef

What Rob has posted on his website is very much what Kenjay got back also.

QuoteMr. Blessin,

To confirm, we understand that you desire to provide the following services for NeXT m68k-based personal computers:

* backups

* restores

* upgrades to Y2K-compliant versions for both NeXTSTEP and OpenStep operating systems,though again only for NeXT hardware.

Under the circumstances, we don't believe we have issues with you providing such services, and we require no further information or consideration from you.

Sincerely, Ernest Prabhakar Apple Computer

On Jun 18, 2004, at 1:39 PM, Rob Blessin wrote: >

Hello Ernest Prabhakar:

Thank you ,awesome, I sincerely appreciate it!

Do you want to fax me something official from Apple Legal or email a statement that I can put on the website or is it OK to use this email as verification.

Best regards Rob Blessin

:There is nothing official.

This email is for your records.

If anyone has concerns, they can contact me directly.

Best, Ernie P.

So by that it sounds [to me] what Rob is doing is fine with Apple [in an un-official way] and if anyone has a problem they can take it up with Apple. I don't think that anything else can be said about the subject.  :P

-Mike

Wow, I never actually saw that page before, but then his site has a rather "unique" design ;)  Kind of hard to navigate and find what you are looking for, and it tends to give me a splitting headache just looking at it.

So to summerize,  "officially" as long as the recipient has black hardware, it is ok to distribute copies of NS/OS for a nominal fee to cover time/materials/shipping.  Distribution for running on Intel hardware still a no-no.

That pretty much closes the book on this subject, at least for me.

Chef

Found this going through the documentation from the stuff i just got.  Apparently they asked this question, and this is the letter from NeXT they got in response.  I can email the original to an admin if you want, as it may be a good addition to the file archive.

(http://img172.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nslicensepolicyrz9.png)

Chef

Quote from: "nextchef"Found this going through the documentation from the stuff i just got.  Apparently they asked this question, and this is the letter from NeXT they got in response.  I can email the original to an admin if you want, as it may be a good addition to the file archive.

(http://img172.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nslicensepolicyrz9.png)

Chef

Very nice find [not to mention the incredible "rescue" you pulled off!]. Thanks for posting it.

-Mike

Nice find nextchef!!

At the very least the scan should be hosted on the forum's files section.

QuoteMr. Blessin,

To confirm, we understand that you desire to provide the following services for NeXT m68k-based personal computers:

* backups

* restores

* upgrades to Y2K-compliant versions for both NeXTSTEP and OpenStep operating systems,though again only for NeXT hardware.

Under the circumstances, we don't believe we have issues with you providing such services, and we require no further information or consideration from you.

Sincerely, Ernest Prabhakar Apple Computer

On Jun 18, 2004, at 1:39 PM, Rob Blessin wrote: >

Hello Ernest Prabhakar:

Thank you ,awesome, I sincerely appreciate it!

Do you want to fax me something official from Apple Legal or email a statement that I can put on the website or is it OK to use this email as verification.

Best regards Rob Blessin

:There is nothing official.

This email is for your records.

If anyone has concerns, they can contact me directly.

Best, Ernie P.

Interesting.  

I had been looking through my old copies of NeXTWORLD and NEXT IN LINE and thought Ernest Prabhakar's name looked familiar.  

His name appears on a letter to the editor asking "will NeXT survive" in the Spring 1992 issue of NeXTWORLD and turns up again as a "staff writer" for NEXT IN LINE where he is described as "a member of the NUGI (NeXT Users Group International) Steering Committee" and a Ph.D. student in experimental particle physics at the California Institute of Technology.

It appears that he got his Ph.D. in '95 and now "Dr. Ernie" is Product Manager for UNIX, Open Source & XML, Mac OS X at Apple.

James

Quote from: "jheis"Interesting.  

Very interesting research jheis! I guess the fellow realized the best place to allow him to make *sure* that NeXT technology would survive :) Good choices!

Hello NeXT Community: yes I still have permission to do this as I've pulled many many thorns out of the big lions paw with regard to prior art patent litigation . I have kept the NeXT torch burning all these years , I keep discovering these threads from years past , where i apparently was the subject of much discussion. I now have downloadable NeXTstep Openstep isos as well at www.blackholeinc.com . Amazing I'm still doing this and it should be testament I've withstood the tests of time only wish I had discovered this years ago. Best regards Rob Blessin