Title: DSP Cache memory upgrades?
Post by: helf on April 05, 2007, 09:13:35 AM
Post by: helf on April 05, 2007, 09:13:35 AM
Anyone ever seen any of the memory upgrades for the DSP on NeXT systems? They apparently were able to max it out at 576KiB of RAM...
Title: Re: DSP Cache memory upgrades?
Post by: MacG4 on April 05, 2007, 09:21:20 AM
Post by: MacG4 on April 05, 2007, 09:21:20 AM
Quote from: "helf"Anyone ever seen any of the memory upgrades for the DSP on NeXT systems? They apparently were able to max it out at 576KiB of RAM...heard about em, but have never actaully seem them
Title: Re: DSP Cache memory upgrades?
Post by: Andreas on April 05, 2007, 12:11:16 PM
Post by: Andreas on April 05, 2007, 12:11:16 PM
Quote from: "helf"Anyone ever seen any of the memory upgrades for the DSP on NeXT systems?
Yes i have seen one in original package on eBay. I have also bidden on that but with no chance, so i assume it was gone for a lot more than a few hundred dollars. (if i remember correctly i have bidden about $200)
Title: DSP Cache memory upgrades?
Post by: da9000 on April 05, 2007, 08:34:30 PM
Post by: da9000 on April 05, 2007, 08:34:30 PM
WOW! That's a crazy amount!
What I'd be more interested is the programming manuals for the DSP subsystem. Are these available someplace?
What I'd be more interested is the programming manuals for the DSP subsystem. Are these available someplace?
Title: DSP Cache memory upgrades?
Post by: tech_head on April 23, 2007, 05:58:47 PM
Post by: tech_head on April 23, 2007, 05:58:47 PM
I did some DSP programming. For audio mostly.
I also designed a custome A/D and Digitial I/O board.
I also designed a custome A/D and Digitial I/O board.
Quote from: "da9000"WOW! That's a crazy amount!
What I'd be more interested is the programming manuals for the DSP subsystem. Are these available someplace?
Title: DSP Cache memory upgrades?
Post by: da9000 on April 23, 2007, 08:20:06 PM
Post by: da9000 on April 23, 2007, 08:20:06 PM
Quote from: "tech_head"I did some DSP programming. For audio mostly.
I also designed a custome A/D and Digitial I/O board.
Hey tech_head, that's pretty cool! Could you please give us some more info on the development tools and manuals for this? Also, is the DSP programmed via memory mapped I/O, can it do DMA to the main memory, etc ? Give us as many details you can/want for the stuff you did with on the NeXT/DSP.
Thanks in advance for the info!
Title: Re: DSP Cache memory upgrades?
Post by: Nitro on May 31, 2007, 11:53:06 AM
Post by: Nitro on May 31, 2007, 11:53:06 AM
Quote from: "helf"Anyone ever seen any of the memory upgrades for the DSP on NeXT systems? They apparently were able to max it out at 576KiB of RAM...
Here's a picture of the original NeXT DSP memory expansion module.
Source: http://www.geocities.jp/next_freak/next-funto3.html
It's a standard JEDEC 64-pin SIMM footprint. I tried a 1Mb 64-pin SIMM designed for an Apple Mac IIfx or LaserWriter, but my Turbo Color Slab would not boot with the SIMM installed. So apparently it's a unique design. At some point I'd like to start a project to clone both the original 96Kb NeXT part (N7013) and the 576Kb part made by San Francisco State University. There was mention of such a project on comp.sys.next.hardware ~7 years ago, IIRC.
Title: DSP Cache memory upgrades?
Post by: korneluk on June 01, 2007, 01:25:30 PM
Post by: korneluk on June 01, 2007, 01:25:30 PM
The DSP expansion memory has a special layout as described below:
"Off-chip DSP memory on the NeXT computer exists in two address ranges, each of which spans all of the 8K words of external memory. In the first address range (8K to 16K), x, y, and p memories are overlaid; that is, an external memory reference points to the same off-chip location regardless of the memory space specified. Note that in this address range, there is no l memory space support. (The high and low words are mapped to the same word.) In the second address range (40K to 48K), x and y are split into separate 4K partitions, and p overlays the entire 8K. This address region allows external l memory use, and supports algorithms (such as the Motorola benchmarks involving complex data) which expect x and y memories to be physically separate".
I found this info on an article by Julius O. Smith from Next and Stanford U.
"Off-chip DSP memory on the NeXT computer exists in two address ranges, each of which spans all of the 8K words of external memory. In the first address range (8K to 16K), x, y, and p memories are overlaid; that is, an external memory reference points to the same off-chip location regardless of the memory space specified. Note that in this address range, there is no l memory space support. (The high and low words are mapped to the same word.) In the second address range (40K to 48K), x and y are split into separate 4K partitions, and p overlays the entire 8K. This address region allows external l memory use, and supports algorithms (such as the Motorola benchmarks involving complex data) which expect x and y memories to be physically separate".
I found this info on an article by Julius O. Smith from Next and Stanford U.
Title: DSP Cache memory upgrades?
Post by: idylukewild on June 01, 2007, 05:16:05 PM
Post by: idylukewild on June 01, 2007, 05:16:05 PM
Nitro-
Have you got the circuit design from the SFSU team? If they produced a finished, working, DSP expansion there may be someone willing to get the circuit diagram and art for the boards to you. That stuff tends to stay around forever now that it can be contained in digital form (unless everybody associated with the project has passed away and/or didn't care enough to back up their files). I can't see why anybody would hold back from freely giving you that information, especially if you make it clear that it is for historical purposes only and that nobody will profit from the information. Then you'd have to get the correct chips...
Luke
Have you got the circuit design from the SFSU team? If they produced a finished, working, DSP expansion there may be someone willing to get the circuit diagram and art for the boards to you. That stuff tends to stay around forever now that it can be contained in digital form (unless everybody associated with the project has passed away and/or didn't care enough to back up their files). I can't see why anybody would hold back from freely giving you that information, especially if you make it clear that it is for historical purposes only and that nobody will profit from the information. Then you'd have to get the correct chips...
Luke
Title: DSP Cache memory upgrades?
Post by: korneluk on June 01, 2007, 05:49:19 PM
Post by: korneluk on June 01, 2007, 05:49:19 PM
I'll gladly layout the PCB if someone can provide the schematic.
-- josé k.
-- josé k.
Title: DSP Cache memory upgrades?
Post by: Nitro on June 01, 2007, 06:30:17 PM
Post by: Nitro on June 01, 2007, 06:30:17 PM
I sent an e-mail to Tom Holton of SFSU this afternoon requesting information and/or schematics of the module they designed. The e-mail didn't bounce, so I'll keep my fingers crossed that he's still there. I also sent an e-mail to Julius O. Smith requesting information about the NeXT RAM module, so hopefully he still has information on the subject.
I've done quite a bit of investigation over the past few days into building a new module. The pin layout of the DSP expansion socket is on page 9 of the Turbo Slab schematics.
http://www.nextcomputers.org/NeXTfiles/Docs/Hardware/Schematics/Turbo_slab/CSlab33_Schematics.tar.gz
I also have the part numbers of the SRAM and multiplexer chip used on the original NeXT module, so it should be possible to build a new RAM module with currently available cross-referenced parts. However, I'm not an Electrical Engineer, so I may or may not be able to figure out the board layout/wiring. :) I'll start a community project in the NeXT worklog section and maybe we can get a collective effort going to build a new module. Thanks for the informative responses.
I've done quite a bit of investigation over the past few days into building a new module. The pin layout of the DSP expansion socket is on page 9 of the Turbo Slab schematics.
http://www.nextcomputers.org/NeXTfiles/Docs/Hardware/Schematics/Turbo_slab/CSlab33_Schematics.tar.gz
I also have the part numbers of the SRAM and multiplexer chip used on the original NeXT module, so it should be possible to build a new RAM module with currently available cross-referenced parts. However, I'm not an Electrical Engineer, so I may or may not be able to figure out the board layout/wiring. :) I'll start a community project in the NeXT worklog section and maybe we can get a collective effort going to build a new module. Thanks for the informative responses.
Title: DSP Cache memory upgrades?
Post by: korneluk on June 01, 2007, 06:39:41 PM
Post by: korneluk on June 01, 2007, 06:39:41 PM
Well, I am an engineer - or at least "I play one during the day".
Good idea with the community project. It would also be extremely cool if we could find more info on the Ariel Quint DSP / QuintProcessor.
http://www.nextcomputers.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=871
-- josé k.
Good idea with the community project. It would also be extremely cool if we could find more info on the Ariel Quint DSP / QuintProcessor.
http://www.nextcomputers.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=871
-- josé k.
Title: DSP Cache memory upgrades?
Post by: blackcube on June 02, 2007, 10:09:57 AM
Post by: blackcube on June 02, 2007, 10:09:57 AM
I have one of the DSP SIMMs in my Dimension Cube. I'm pull it as I start to unpack stuff.
Title: DSP Cache memory upgrades?
Post by: korneluk on June 02, 2007, 01:37:25 PM
Post by: korneluk on June 02, 2007, 01:37:25 PM
Could you loan me the SIM for one week so I can trace the circuit and get the part numbers off of it? I'll pay for postage both ways.
Thanks,
-- josé k.
Thanks,
-- josé k.
Title: DSP Cache memory upgrades?
Post by: idylukewild on June 02, 2007, 02:41:56 PM
Post by: idylukewild on June 02, 2007, 02:41:56 PM
I sent the following to th@ernie.sfsu.edu on Feb. 16, 2006:
"Mr. Holton-
Is your DSP memory expansion module for
a NeXTstation still available? I realize it has
been over ten years since the documents that
point to you have been written, but thought it
might be worth a try.
Luke"
The email address came from the NeXTFAQ bit
on the DSP expansion card. The mail did not
bounce back and I never got a reply. I did notice
there is a different email address for him on the
SFSU website:
Discipline: Digital
Office: SCI 170
Phone: (415) 338-2741
Fax: (415) 338-0525
Email: tholton@sfsu.edu
"Mr. Holton-
Is your DSP memory expansion module for
a NeXTstation still available? I realize it has
been over ten years since the documents that
point to you have been written, but thought it
might be worth a try.
Luke"
The email address came from the NeXTFAQ bit
on the DSP expansion card. The mail did not
bounce back and I never got a reply. I did notice
there is a different email address for him on the
SFSU website:
Discipline: Digital
Office: SCI 170
Phone: (415) 338-2741
Fax: (415) 338-0525
Email: tholton@sfsu.edu
Title: DSP Cache memory upgrades?
Post by: Nitro on June 02, 2007, 03:20:06 PM
Post by: Nitro on June 02, 2007, 03:20:06 PM
I received a reply back from Julius O. Smith about the NeXT RAM module.
I'm currently uploading all of the DSP56001 documentation that I have to the following location:
http://www.nextcomputers.org/NeXTfiles/Docs/Audio/DSP56001/
Quote from: "Nitro"
Hi Julius,
I'm trying to design a clone of the NeXT DSP RAM Expansion Module (part number N7013) for original NeXT Black Hardware. I don't have a schematic of the module (or an actual module), just some chip numbers. I know it was a long time ago, but would you happen to have any information or schematics of the NeXT RAM module or the 576Kb unit built by San Francisco State University? I know it's a long shot, but I thought I would ask. I'm not an Electrical Engineer, so I need all the help I can get. :) Thanks very much for your time.
Regards,
Nitro
Quote from: "Julius O. Smith"
Hmmm, that's an odd one. Can't you just figure it out from the DSP56000 data book? If it's the one I had, it just used the same address space. There was one feature whereby it could be used either as two banks or as one big memory from either x or y. Do you just need the memory map for that? It's probably documented in the DSP source code at least.
Julius O. Smith III <e-mail address removed>
Prof. of Music and Assoc. Prof. (by courtesy) of Electrical Engineering
CCRMA, Stanford University
http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jos/
I'm currently uploading all of the DSP56001 documentation that I have to the following location:
http://www.nextcomputers.org/NeXTfiles/Docs/Audio/DSP56001/