Giving Previous a website

THE STORY SO FAR: Our beloved Previous emulator has no official website. It is rather tricky to find up-to-date information on it—the main mailing list is the obtusely-named What Needs to be done for a NeXT Emulator (https://www.nextcomputers.org/forums/index.php?topic=2642) thread, and searching the web for it will send you to this old page (http://previous.alternative-system.com/), this old fork (https://github.com/probonopd/previous), this wiki stub (https://betawiki.net/wiki/Previous), and also this old page (https://previous.unixdude.net/%5B/url) before it sends you to the actual authoritative project site (https://sourceforge.net/projects/previous/), which is quite unassuming. (At least the wiki stub actually gets the forum thread right, but that's not exactly easy to sort through!)

Following discussion here (https://www.nextcomputers.org/forums/index.php?topic=6031.msg34652#msg34652), it was agreed that a new thread should be created for discussing development of an official homepage for Previous. Ideally this would be set up using SourceForge's project web services, with a nice subdomain URL like previous.sourceforge.net, but @andreas_g noted getting this URL will require contacting the project founder (https://sourceforge.net/u/gilles_fetis/profile/), presumably @gilles (who also set up the previous.alternative-system.com page, but the last builds there are for Previous 0.5, which is 10 years old.)

HOSTING: I am willing (if necessary) to host the site myself, although I think everyone agrees that if the previous.sourceforge.net URL can't be set up then it would be best if @Nitro could host the official Previous page, either at a subdomain e.g. previous.nextcomputers.org or a subdirectory nextcomputers.org/previous.

CONTENT & DESIGN: That leaves the business of actually building and maintaining the page. @andreas_g has indicated that he doesn't have the time to do so; in the interest of expediency I have been working on a mockup consistent with the latest feedback from the earlier thread about working on Previous's appearance (https://www.nextcomputers.org/forums/index.php?topic=5723). Here's the first draft:





The top bar is based on the classic NeXT cardboard shipping boxes, which used strong typography on a black background for titling. Headings are in Futura Extra Black Condensed with negative tracking, which was NeXT's standard branding style for its entire existence. The page is implemented in a mix of modern CSS 3 + HTML 5 and backward-compatible HTML 4, so it will look OK whether you're using MobileSafari or OmniWeb 3 (although it doesn't look quite the same). Images are in GIF and JPEG, aside from the screengrabs (which I haven't converted from PNG—yet.) No Javascript was used. The image of the NeXTstation running Illustrator is from one of @MindWalker's scans.

This might all look a little spartan at the moment, although it is also consistent with NeXT branding. Consider it a starting point; give me your feedback of what you think should be on here.

Yes, we can host the pages here. Also, I can rename the Previous thread and/or make other changes if needed. This would probably be the easier URL:

https://nextcomputers.org/previous/ (https://nextcomputers.org/previous/)

Quote from: Nitro on August 20, 2025, 06:02:17 PMYes, we can host the pages here. Also, I can rename the Previous thread and/or make other changes if needed. This would probably be the easier URL:

https://nextcomputers.org/previous/ (https://nextcomputers.org/previous/)

Thanks, Nitro! Even if there are no design notes I'll still need to do some work on the page; a fair bit of the text is still placeholder material and the actual file links aren't done. It will also need to be maintained regularly with new updates. But it's excellent that we can have it hosted here. :)

Wow the previous website looks really great. Great job @Rhetorica

Thank you @Rhetorica for your fantastic work! Although this is a first draft it already looks very good. I'm looking forward to see this evolve.

Also thank you @Nitro for offering to host the page on nextcomputers.org. I still hope to get full access to the sourceforge repository, but so far I have not been able to contact Gilles. So having the option to host here is great!

From this website http://previous.alternative-system.com/index.php/download (http://previous.alternative-system.com/index.php/download) Previous 0.5 runs on Windows XP, for your notes :)

Quote from: pTeK on August 21, 2025, 12:56:28 AMFrom this website http://previous.alternative-system.com/index.php/download (http://previous.alternative-system.com/index.php/download) Previous 0.5 runs on Windows XP, for your notes :)

Yeah, that may literally be the last build that does, which is a bit surprising but... not really all that surprising. I'm sure you could probably build something a bit newer though.

If there are no sought-after changes for the page as it stands, I'll probably just keep polishing the current look. To complete it I'll need:

 - A current macOS build. (@andreas_g I'm sure you could just sling me one via my upload page)
 - A new-ish Mac OS X build for x86 (including what to put for minimum OS version)
 - A new-ish Mac OS X build for PowerPC? (also including minimum OS version) — NeXTfiles lists a 2.4 build as "universal" (https://www.nextcomputers.org/NeXTfiles/Software/Previous68Kemulator/) but I have no idea what that means exactly. Presumably it won't run on a G3... :)

I'm also keen to collect more screenshots. We need to show the world what Previous can do! So post some of those screen grabs here!

In particular, I'd really like to get a screenshot of Doom with DoomEd in the background, but (horror of horrors) it seems there's no 68k binary for it, and I can't get it to compile from Romero's sources on NS3.3—it spits out some nonsense about a bunch of headers being broken. But this may deserve its own thread if the solution is not trivial.

The latest version of Previous for macOS (x86_64 and arm64) is in the main thread here (https://www.nextcomputers.org/forums/index.php?topic=2642.msg34348#msg34348). I don't think it makes sense to search for the last version running on PPC and x86. Those old systems are just too slow to run Previous without pain.

About the design: I like it and I don't see any major problems. The only thing I would change is adding some more space between the topics in the top bar for clear separation.

Quote from: Rhetorica on August 21, 2025, 02:09:33 AMIn particular, I'd really like to get a screenshot of Doom with DoomEd in the background, but (horror of horrors) it seems there's no 68k binary for it, and I can't get it to compile from Romero's sources on NS3.3—it spits out some nonsense about a bunch of headers being broken. But this may deserve its own thread if the solution is not trivial.

The copy of DoomED in John Romero's 2015 dump (https://www.doomworld.com/vb/thread/72509) is MAB. Just checked it with 3.3 in Previous.

Most of the pics on my Flickr show NS but not Previous (the old ones do but they're very old) so here's a fresh one:



And another one:

Quote from: protocol7 on August 21, 2025, 05:40:21 AMThe copy of DoomED in John Romero's 2015 dump (https://www.doomworld.com/vb/thread/72509) is MAB. Just checked it with 3.3 in Previous.

Well, well, well... I was a dingus and forgot to set the executable flag on the binary. I have gotten my screenshot now!

I've just been using direct screengrabs from Previous (which admittedly doesn't show the UI) since it has a built-in feature to do so, and most potential users won't really register the significance of the bottom bar (which is actually part of the UI code inherited from Hatari (https://www.hatari-emu.org/screens/features/deskhigh.png)) relative to the OS. I did, however, snag your first screenshot and its sumptuous drop shadow for a hero graphic.

(I am also still holding out hope that we can get the UI overhauled in 4.0 to look less like a cheap 386...)

The spacing on the header links has been fixed.

Unrelatedly I felt like making some web buttons with suitable cheesiness:


They're a bit bigger than a traditional 88x31 px button so they can accommodate a 48x48 icon comfortably and still have a border.

Quote from: Rhetorica on August 20, 2025, 03:42:31 PMThe top bar is based on the classic NeXT cardboard shipping boxes, which used strong typography on a black background for titling. Headings are in Futura Extra Black Condensed with negative tracking, which was NeXT's standard branding style for its entire existence.

Very nice, congratulations. I know it's only the first draft, but I'd suggest more spacing around the text at the top: in my test, I reduced the font size by 15% so there's more black around the words.

Quote from: krazycat on August 21, 2025, 05:15:15 PMVery nice, congratulations. I know it's only the first draft, but I'd suggest more spacing around the text at the top: in my test, I reduced the font size by 15% so there's more black around the words.

So... aesthetically I agree with you, but the cardboard boxes in question are actually like that. If anything they're even tighter:



Do we have any other votes for wider margins?

Quote from: Rhetorica on August 21, 2025, 07:53:58 PMDo we have any other votes for wider margins?

I like it as it is now. It was only about the topics on top. They are seen as separate words instead of flowing text now which I think is good. The narrow margins in the headlines are fine.

I think it's a great start for a Previous website, kudos to Rhetorica!

So far, the information provided focusses on the hardware emulation. But I'm missing a list of the operating systems that can be hosted by Previous. IMHO that should include all NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP versions, beginning with 0.8 (as long as nobody comes forward with some 0.7 package...), including all official releases and other preliminary releases.

But that would also include versions of NetBSD. I remember that somebody has reported that some version of NetBSD was working in some version of Previous (maybe this was even Andreas?)

There's a great thrive in the community right now, and that is to a large extent to the dedicated work of Rhetorica, with many forum participants helping out. It's hard to even catch up, but lots of fun to read:)

Thanks!

not sure, but it might run the NeXT version of Plan9

Quote from: Rhetorica on August 22, 2025, 09:56:42 AMI'm glad it's paying off! I've added all the OSes to the list, plus the major emulators that I know of.

Great! I guess, a simple list like that should be enough for a single page like this. But seeing the emulators, I'm missing Daydream... ;)

In general, what do you have in mind for future development of this page? Do you (or: do folks) want to keep it to just one page or should it evolve into a set of pages that would offer space to deal with specific aspects like e.g. network setup, maybe even tutorials etc.?

I could imagine it could become the location for all things Previous so that people would no longer be forced to wade through the forum threads to get answers to their particular questions.

Quote from: blackbeauty on August 22, 2025, 11:08:06 AMGreat! I guess, a simple list like that should be enough for a single page like this. But seeing the emulators, I'm missing Daydream... ;)

I had Daydream on there at first, but I'm not sure if it would actually work—doesn't it need a hardware dongle?

Quote from: blackbeauty on August 22, 2025, 11:08:06 AMIn general, what do you have in mind for future development of this page?

That's a great question, and there are definitely lots of nuggets of wisdom that could be imparted on further pages: the information still in the other .txt files that come with the emulator; the specific hardware requirements of pre-release versions; the nuances of why exactly you can't shove a NeXTdimension board into a color slab... I probably wouldn't add any more sections to the current page, but rather spin them out into separate parts.

Quote from: Rhetorica on August 22, 2025, 11:21:16 AMI had Daydream on there at first, but I'm not sure if it would actually work—doesn't it need a hardware dongle?

True, the original version required that. But there was a heroic community effort that ended up in "darkmatter", as touted by one of the original developers of Daydream, who played a decisive roll to turn Daydream into a pure software solution. Read all about it in this thread (https://www.nextcomputers.org/forums/index.php?topic=1722).

Quote from: Rhetorica on August 22, 2025, 09:56:42 AMIt looks like cuby (https://www.nextcomputers.org/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=48) was the one trying out NetBSD in Previous. (citation 1 (https://www.nextcomputers.org/forums/index.php?topic=4863.msg28724#msg28724), citation 2 (https://www.nextcomputers.org/forums/index.php?topic=5002.msg29611#msg29611)) — but to be honest I haven't found any screenshots of it actually running, just having trouble with netbooting. He also posted this thread (https://www.nextcomputers.org/forums/index.php?topic=5522.msg31551#msg31551) saying that turbo cubes are the only black hardware that NetBSD can handle (as of 18 months ago), so we may need to do some sleuthing to test out what actually works...

Ah, I think what I wrote was a bit confusing - the TurboCube is the only Turbo machine supported, regular non-Turbo systems should work fine.

However, NetBSD had a regression between versions 5.2.3 and 10.0 (!) which affected at least (non ADB) keyboard/mouse input and SCSI. Thanks to the 68k NetBSD maintainer, Izumi Tsutsui, these bugs were fixed for 10.0. I'll try to test the new NetBSD 11 release over the weekend.

Quote from: Rhetorica on August 22, 2025, 09:56:42 AM

Quotenot sure, but it might run the NeXT version of Plan9

andreas_g (https://www.nextcomputers.org/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=803) states here (https://www.nextcomputers.org/forums/index.php?topic=2642.msg28256#msg28256) that it's netbootable, but I'm not sure what release it was that had NeXT support. (Possibly release 2?) — I imagine that most 9front enthusiasts (yes, people still use Plan 9! (http://9front.org/)) would be annoyed if this were added without specifying the version limitations. (Psst, does anyone have the installation media?)

I can boot Plan 9 on non-Turbo black hardware. The last version with NeXT support is version 2. Plan 9 redesigned the graphics subsystem (and more) in release 3, so porting a more recent Plan 9 version to black hardware will be quite some effort.

I should probably write some HOWTOs that describe how to get NetBSD and Plan 9 to work on black hardware (and Previous)...

Any chance of using justify for the top part and contributors section for my OCD  :P

Great website by the way :) Those are some great RAW html skills. I don't know what you did but when I save your site as a favourite on my iPhone with brave browser it saves the NeXT "Global Net" icon as a icon, not just some letter.

---

Quick update: Gilles responded and gave me admin access to the sourceforge project page. So if we want to place something there, we should be able to do so. But I have no preferences on where to host the page.

Quote from: andreas_g on August 23, 2025, 03:22:03 AMQuick update: Gilles responded and gave me admin access to the sourceforge project page. So if we want to place something there, we should be able to do so. But I have no preferences on where to host the page.

That's great news!

Maybe it's best to have everything in one place: nextcomputers.org/previous and have just a redirect from the sourceforge project page to there.

All the best,
Kokomuck

This is looking really nice now. Great work!

For the OS support blurb I'd suggest changing the line "All known pre-release versions (some may have specific hardware requirements)" to all available as there are pre-release versions that we know of but don't have to test. Just recently the NS3 PRs that zombie shared brought up a new bug.

Here's a couple of candidate shots of OpenStep 4.0 PR1*. As it's the most visually distinct version of NS/OS I think it'd be nice to have it in there.



* Obligatory reminder that we still need good dumps of this.

Oh you used both. Thanks! I figured you might take one so I wanted to give you a choice.

Yep I've been using the ND for ages in Previous. My default config is a (non-Turbo) Cube with ND. Works fine. What are you having trouble with? When using the 030 recently for zombie's PRs I noticed that there was no output until I got to the login/desktop. But it worked fine after that (the two colour screens I posted of PR1 and PR2 are with the ND).

Actually that copy of PR1 is not good :(. It is everywhere, however. Which might be why nobody has thought to re-rip it. Being frequently mislabelled as NEXTSTEP 4.0 probably doesn't help. The discs are not in NeXT format, but ISO9660. That's why it only works as an upgrade. If you check the upgrade log from a 3.3 install at the end there's a dozen or so files missing from the disc. And that's just for m68k.

It's been 17 years since these were first shared and I'm still holding out hope that someone will provide clean rips of the discs and floppies at some stage. I'm grateful to have it at all, but it's such a unique release that it deserves better. Here's a scan of the user disc for reference:

I just tried it with a turbo cube and it booted fine. Maybe it'll work for you if you try again?

The naming varies even on the disc. The upgrader app is branded NEXTSTEP but apps reference OpenStep (you can even see this in the Mandelbrot app about screen).

Anyway, I don't want to go on any more and derail this thread but the TLDR on fixing OS4.0PR1 is I tried and it didn't work.

I also run a site for Previous at previous.unixdude.net. I need to update it with the latest version.

Quote from: eagle on August 23, 2025, 07:11:08 PMI also run a site for Previous at previous.unixdude.net. I need to update it with the latest version.

Hiya,

Wouldn't it be best if we redirect this site to "nextcomputers.org/previous"? It's just duplication of content and the hassle of updating several sites with the same topic - not to mention advantages for SEO.

From my point of view, we should have just one page ("nextcomputers.org/previous") with all the relevant content and all other existing sites should redirect (permanently redirect) to this site.

All the best,
Kokomuck

Eagle's (not using @ under protest) site is different than the new one. Eagle set that up quite a long time ago and was very much I think a holder of posterity on its own for a good long while.

For one, I think the new page should reference eagle's site (perhaps it already does-- not using @ for Rhetorica under protest) as I suspect some good info came from it.

As to if eagle would like to consolidate with rhetorica, I'm more of a "more the merrier" kind of person.

All that said, with andreas_g (again not using @ under protest-free the @!!!) giving his blessing to the rhetorica site, for now that seems to be the 'semi official site'.

Quote from: kokomuck on August 25, 2025, 12:48:57 AMWouldn't it be best if we redirect this site to "nextcomputers.org/previous"? It's just duplication of content and the hassle of updating several sites with the same topic - not to mention advantages for SEO.

From my point of view, we should have just one page ("nextcomputers.org/previous") with all the relevant content and all other existing sites should redirect (permanently redirect) to this site.

That might be an option when the nextcomputers.org/previous site exists, sure.

I created my site a long time ago, when there was no website at all for Previous.  The fact that there was no site is exactly why I created it.

It's really too bad that I haven't updated it lately.  I've just been busy with other things in life, and haven't done much that is NeXT-related.

If anyone wants to see the source files for my site, the code is found on github (https://github.com/ataridude/previous-website).

The code there builds a Docker image, which is found on Docker hub (https://hub.docker.com/r/ataridude/previous-website).

I run that Docker image through Traefik (https://traefik.io/).  (All sites I run are Docker images run through Traefik.)